RUMOR: New Formula 5000?

[FormulaFox]

This little piece of intrigue reached my inbox today, but I was too busy having a laugh at a troll on Racer.com to remember to post it here. But this is a very interesting little tidbit...

It's rumored that a group of businessmen that MAY include a lesser known member of the France family(though it is not likely) are developing a new mid-tier open-wheel championship geared towards transitioning sprint car drivers -and other short track racers in general- into Indy-style mid-engined formula cars.

The series will, like the old F5000, feature 5-liter maximum displacement engines, no turbos allowed, and be built around steel tube frame chassis that maintain the layout and aerodynamics of modern formula cars. Mostly-open chassis development is being looked at, but not guaranteed.

The unclear involvement of the France family is leading my source to believe this may be an effort to slowly build to an alternative top-tier championship. He feels that the TUSCC will give NASCAR a better understanding of carbon-fiber monocoque racecars that will eventually be applied to a series meant to seriously compete against IndyCar.

Personally, I think he's extrpolating a bit too much from the matter. We don't even know if this has gone beyond being a mere idea in the minds of some rich racers.

Regardless, what do you think of a revived F5000 series? Does this seem like a good idea? Should such a series be built more like an IndyCar challenger? Maybe even a true "American F1" series like the old F5000 series tried to be?

All I know is I want to know more one way or another on this...

[FormulaFox]

No opinions on this? I'm honestly surprised. Figured there'd be a lot to say about this.

[mdkiel]

Link?

[Jakester]

Yet another open wheel series would seem to be a tough row to hoe, though one supposes a France (or a France with significant NASCAR money) could afford to 'invest' in the series to float it and keep it afloat while waiting for success.

If designed to eventually compete with IndyCar, I'd say the less costly way to go would be to just buy IndyCar. Though such a deal would appear to be unlikely to include IMS, which would then demand a very high sanction for the series to run at Indy. OTOH, if the new series is to compete with IndyCar, as we saw with Champ Car, if you don't run Indy it's not likely to be successful (read break even or profit).

[Paddy]

Real historic F5000 cars are getting almost 700hp using modern internals on their "305" cube chevys. So we are talking about tube frame cars like a formula ford but with 700+hp, sounds safe to me! What gearbox would be used that could handle that kind of power, it won't be cheap. Won't happen. For a modern F5000 car, just find an old Lola Indy Lites(97/20) car with the bullet proof Buick V6 and a proper carbon tub. Lots of these show up in the BOSS group that run the big historic events.

[FTHurley]

No opinions on this? I'm honestly surprised. Figured there'd be a lot to say about this.

I guess for me, there's not a ton to say at this point since it could be (likely is?) a bunch of rich guys who race sports cars shooting the **** over coffee before the 24, and someone happened to overhear it. Doesn't mean it isn't a fun topic, but I just have trouble knowing even where to begin to form a cogent opinion.

Depending on exactly what they're thinking, it could be anything from pretty darn cool to an unmitigated disaster. That's a big spread in possible outcomes - a bit too big to really form an opinion.

[flatlander_48]

Yet another open wheel series would seem to be a tough row to hoe

I definitely agree with that. And before anyone says "But Formula E...", it's not a good comparison. Formula E exists for reasons beyond racing. People want to showcase green products and others want to be aligned with a green project. This F-5000 wannabe project doesn't relate to either of those.

[FTHurley]

I definitely agree with that. And before anyone says "But Formula E...", it's not a good comparison. Formula E exists for reasons beyond racing. People want to showcase green products and others want to be aligned with a green project. This F-5000 wannabe project doesn't relate to either of those.

Yeah, right now the racing marketplace is pretty crowded. Between F1, NASCAR, IndyCar, sports cars, and short tracks, to say nothing of drag racing and a whole bunch of motorcycle disciplines, if you want to watch vehicles racing, you're covered.

If you want to start a new series, it has to be fundamentally different in some major way. It cannot be "like Series X, only cheaper/faster/better looking/higher tech/on ovals/on road courses/in the streets/not run by TG/France/Bernie/whatever other hook you have." In fact, in addition to being different, you almost have to think you're different enough and awesome enough to one day supplant one of the top series, since even if you're different, there still isn't much shelf space. You can only start another open wheel series if you think it could replace and oust IndyCar within a fairly short window of time.

Formula E seems sufficiently different in that unlike all the others, it doesn't involve internal combustion. I don't know if it'll work, but it seems different enough to fit the first criteria. As for the second, I suppose the Formula E people could talk themselves into a story where over the next five years electric vehicles come into their own and become major players, and since their series actually features applicable drivetrain development, they're suddenly the top global series. Again, I don't think I buy it, but most companies started with a dream everyone else thought seemed crazy. If they have the money, they're welcome to spend it chasing crazy, and maybe they'll prove me wrong.

"Just like IndyCar except with tube frames and stock blocks and short-track drivers, and (almost certainly) without the Indy 500," doesn't really seems all that differentiated. It's different, but it's not new. It's basically taking elements that didn't really work for the IRL, some that didn't work for CART, and sprinkling on the things about NASCAR that people like the least, and hoping that when cooked together a great stew emerges that can garner enough interest to justify funding it out of pocket for what is likely to be a decade before it has any hope of really establishing itself.

That's the problem with a new Formula 5000 series. I'm a racing nerd. I think it sounds fun as hell. So does a week in Key West with my buddies from college. I don't think that's a good idea either.

[ptclaus98]

This little piece of intrigue reached my inbox today, but I was too busy having a laugh at a troll on Racer.com to remember to post it here. But this is a very interesting little tidbit...

It's rumored that a group of businessmen that MAY include a lesser known member of the France family(though it is not likely) are developing a new mid-tier open-wheel championship geared towards transitioning sprint car drivers -and other short track racers in general- into Indy-style mid-engined formula cars.

The series will, like the old F5000, feature 5-liter maximum displacement engines, no turbos allowed, and be built around steel tube frame chassis that maintain the layout and aerodynamics of modern formula cars. Mostly-open chassis development is being looked at, but not guaranteed.

The unclear involvement of the France family is leading my source to believe this may be an effort to slowly build to an alternative top-tier championship. He feels that the TUSCC will give NASCAR a better understanding of carbon-fiber monocoque racecars that will eventually be applied to a series meant to seriously compete against IndyCar.

Personally, I think he's extrpolating a bit too much from the matter. We don't even know if this has gone beyond being a mere idea in the minds of some rich racers.

Regardless, what do you think of a revived F5000 series? Does this seem like a good idea? Should such a series be built more like an IndyCar challenger? Maybe even a true "American F1" series like the old F5000 series tried to be?

All I know is I want to know more one way or another on this...

It fails by assuming that tubeframes and American V8s are the only way to keep racing cheap. Take the wings off, disallow tunnels and don't dickride big money manufacturers. If they are going to do a pro series with big open wheelers and they expect to keep it cheap then there's no point, because no one is going to care. The racing won't be as good as IndyCar, the budgets will still be high, the racing will be pretty dangerous. And they want to transition sprint car drivers into formula cars? ********. That's not going to help at all. The only thing that's going to help a sprint car driver move into formula cars is seat time in a proper formula car.


The concept is extremely limited. A Formula A which would allow and balance all sorts of BOSS car and stock block engine combinations would be a much more enticing proposition. I'd watch it, maybe, if it could get some live streaming on the internet(which is all it would ever get as it has no marketability to a larger audience), but I sure as hell wouldn't go pay 75 bucks and a weekend for it.


It's not a special concept. Its an answer to a question no one is asking. And I have yet to see one of these "low budget" series survive or stay low budget. Racing needs a free market to keep costs low. This doesn't sound like a series that embraces free market thinking.

[FormulaFox]

Link?

There is no link - this is a rumor an insider source of mine dropped in my inbox. I get several of these a month, most of them go nowhere, and most of them aren't even worth talking about. I only ever bring up stuff that either makes for a mildly interesting "what if"(as is the case here) or actually has a chance at being true.

So take it for what it is - a topic for discussion that has not discernible connection to reality at this time and therefore we can let raw opinion fly without sounding like we're denigrating a serious effort.

When I post these rumor leaks I often take a stance of defending the topic even if I don't think it's a good idea, just to makes sure everyone thinks about everything. Don't think I'll be doing much of that here, though, since I'm of too many different minds about the idea.

[FormulaFox]

And they want to transition sprint car drivers into formula cars? ********. That's not going to help at all. The only thing that's going to help a sprint car driver move into formula cars is seat time in a proper formula car.

What makes a real formula car? I'm pretty sure carbon fiber tubs and body aren't a requirement in that area.

The thing is, as someone who's raced old CART cars in vintage formula, tried out sprint cars(it didn't go well), and currently races dirt modifieds I can say that the weight distribution is by far the single biggest detail that one struggles to overcome when switching types of cars. A series using a tube-frame formula car could teach that just as well as any series running hyper-advanced carbon-fiber machinery.

In some ways, it might help more since the only significant change to what they're used to would be the weight distribution.

I have not commented on the rest of your post because I don't completely disagree. I don't really agree, either, but I don't really have any good reason to argue beyond the above.

[FormulaFox]

Real historic F5000 cars are getting almost 700hp using modern internals on their "305" cube chevys. So we are talking about tube frame cars like a formula ford but with 700+hp, sounds safe to me!

The old cars getting all that power these days does scare me. But a car with modern construction and safety knowledge can be made to race plenty safely. Remember, sprint cars and super late models run that sort of power.

What gearbox would be used that could handle that kind of power, it won't be cheap.

Depends on your definition of cheap. Transmissions that can handle that are not hard to come by. They may not be roadcar cheap, but they're not necessarily going to be bank-breakingly expensive.

[ptclaus98]

What makes a real formula car? I'm pretty sure carbon fiber tubs and body aren't a requirement in that area.

The thing is, as someone who's raced old CART cars in vintage formula, tried out sprint cars(it didn't go well), and currently races dirt modifieds I can say that the weight distribution is by far the single biggest detail that one struggles to overcome when switching types of cars. A series using a tube-frame formula car could teach that just as well as any series running hyper-advanced carbon-fiber machinery.

In some ways, it might help more since the only significant change to what they're used to would be the weight distribution.

I have not commented on the rest of your post because I don't completely disagree. I don't really agree, either, but I don't really have any good reason to argue beyond the above.

Maybe proper formula car wasn't the right wording. EXISTING formula cars, which is to say any single seater with the engine at the back, but preferably with wings and slicks. I can understand that there is no cheap way for dirt-bred drivers to get into big formula cars, but regardless the best way they can prepare themselves for big formula cars is smaller formula cars. They don't need F5000 to learn how to drive formula cars, they need F3 or FA or even F4 if it's the Japanese version. With the IndyCars running 650 hp it's not out of this world for a driver to jump from the F3 level to IndyCars as long as the driver is at the sharp end, snatching poles and winning races. They need the seat time and they need to learn to communicate what the car is doing and they need to do these things at championship level. What frustrates me with the dirt guys, and maybe it's because I'm getting my perspective from the fans, is this "hero driver" mentality. This sentiment that the best drivers can bring a poorly prepared, poorly setup car to the front and do it consistently just by their driving. I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but that has been the theme I've noticed.

[flatlander_48]

"Just like IndyCar except with tube frames and stock blocks and short-track drivers

It has been done before. Ask Mark Alderson...

[JMFVET]

Wasn't Formula 5000 dominated by road and street courses? Why would NASCAR want it or think it would do better than ics?

Maybe use similar formula but on ovals with trucks or Nationwide? Or with TUSC but what would the point be then?

I don't get why anyone would do this?