Penske and Chevy II

[Kaaveh]

Originally posted by Mackie:
<STRONG>the bet offer is still on "K" sorry about your perception of the other, I am trying to explain how things work, sorry you don't get it. Do you have a Fontana tape, run it and watch the cars pass the Penske cars, Homestead would show it also, without Sharp's caution, they would remained lapped due to a green flag pit stop and the points wouldn't have been so tight. Renske can't play the fuel milage game these last two races and risk being wrong. No, the Chevy II won't be a detrimnet to the handles, but that is another reason for testing, which is what they are doing.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Mackie ]</STRONG>

Thank you for explaining things to me. Now let me explain to you that you are making it sound like having horsepower is the only way Penske can win this championship. My opinion is that it is NOT the only way, and they will win with any engine. If horsepower was THAT big of an issue, why wait so long to switch engines when they had their lunch eaten as early as Fontana??

[Mackie]

the bet offer is still on "K" sorry about your perception of the other, I am trying to explain how things work, sorry you don't get it. Do you have a Fontana tape, run it and watch the cars pass the Penske cars, Homestead would show it also, without Sharp's caution, they would remained lapped due to a green flag pit stop and the points wouldn't have been so tight. Renske can't play the fuel milage game these last two races and risk being wrong. No, the Chevy II won't be a detrimnet to the handles, but that is another reason for testing, which is what they are doing.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Mackie ]

[taxpayer]

Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to interject some thoughts on Texas II. It's not necessarily a horsepower thing. I've been to all the races at TMS and Texas I and Texas II are two very different animals.

Texas I works like many typical night races. You start a car off as loose as you dare and try to move it within the box as the track tightens up over the evening. The later start this year encouraged that approach. The three teams (Foyt, Kelly & Ganassi) read it pretty right and were there at the end to thrill us.

Texas II's outcome can have more to do with the weather than horse power. Do some of you remember the first one? The Goodyear shod teams had some real issues race day just because it was 5 degrees warmer than expected. I don't remember the rear suspension differences some of them were using (some agressive toe angles?). But I do remember some teams putting people in the suites just to watch the tire wear.

If the temperature is as unpredictable has normal North Texas September, a 3:00 PM race start could be anything from 80 to 95 degrees. We don't have an idea how greasy the track will start off being because at this time of year we can't predict how soon before the race they may have rain.

The shadows on the front of the track after about 4:00 PM will be an issue as well. Maybe the new asphalt with the different aggragate (for faster drying after rain) won't have as large a temperature difference between the front and back.

All I'm thinking about is that defining the set-up "box" to work in and being able to use it may have more to do with the race results then 10 HP.

It will be a blast though.

Time to leave "w". When I come back in in the morning I'll see what some of the old hands think.

P.S. K. have a great birthday. Reading the post from the TF "Kids" is some of the best things about this place. It makes some of the more "mature" of us feel a little younger.

Agreed, the personal insult was uncalled for.

[Kaaveh]

Originally posted by Mackie:
<STRONG>

"K" for a college student you don't learn very well. Penske knows he HAS to run the Chevy II in order to win the championship, that is why he is testing, not to find out if he likes it, but to find out how to best run it. Tell you what, you think he is going to run the old engine, take it to ToldJaSo, bet whatever you like on it, up to 500 points, I'll cover. Then if you are right and he does run the old engine, I'll bet whatever I have left that a Penske car doesn't win the points.

Kaaveh, the extra HP comes at no cost, the two engines are equally reliable, and having the new one wont hurt the handles.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Mackie ]</STRONG>

I still don't see your reasoning for the personal attack? My point is simply that there really is no reason to switch engines at this point in the season. Whatever Penske runs in, Penske will do fine in...

BTW, are you so sure the newer engine won't hurt the setup?

[Kaaveh]

Originally posted by Sam Fan:
<STRONG>

But Eddie took Sam out of the race, so it wasn't a question of Sam's car not running. If I remember correctly, they had a wheel come off after a pit stop, but before and after that, Sam had one of the fasttest running cars on the track, and was passing left and right to make his way back up front. So your reasoning has a flaw ...</STRONG>

...if you finished reading what your quoted of me, I said horsepower is not everything...there's many other factors in racing...

[yellowshirt]

Penske tested the Chevy II back-to-back with the old engine at Indy this year. If he is making the switch, I would guess it's for one of two reasons:
1. Ilmor has run out of parts to build Auroras
2. The Chevy II is a LITTLE BIT more powerful.
The horsepower difference Ilmor 2001 - Ilmor 2002 is small, so I don't know that they would change at this late stage without another reason. Penske tests everywhere, so maybe they took this opportunity in Chicago to try both motors again, and will decide after the test. It's easy to switch - just a couple of water pipes basically.

The reason Helio got blown away in Texas was that they had the gearing wrong. It was their first night race on the high banking in the draft, and even Penske gets it wrong sometimes.

To answer tjgje's question, you are allowed to test at a track up to one week before the race activity starts there. In other words, up to Friday this week for Chicago, or Friday next week for Texas. If you ask nicely, the IRL will sometimes let you go a day over. Testing is only limited by the supply of tires. There are rules limiting the number of sets that Firestone provides to each car for the season. In practice it hasn't done anything to cut down testing.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by Sam Fan:
<STRONG>But Eddie took Sam out of the race, so it wasn't a question of Sam's car not running. If I remember correctly, they had a wheel come off after a pit stop, but before and after that, Sam had one of the fasttest running cars on the track, and was passing left and right to make his way back up front. So your reasoning has a flaw ...</STRONG>

At the point when Sam and Eddie made contact, Sam had the best car on the track, hands down. He was, as you said, passing them left and right.

Blue

[Mackie]

Originally posted by Kaaveh:
<STRONG>

Whoa! What's with the sarcasm? Horsepower is big in racing, yes, I completely agree, however, it's not the ONLY thing...I'd just like to point out here that I can confirm Helio finished in the top 5 at Texas (4th) while Sam Hornish Jr. didn't even place in the top 15 (18th). So, as you see, much more goes into this besides horsepower...not to mention that Chicago is going to require a good handling car...Penske will be fine with either engine they use...</STRONG>

"K" for a college student you don't learn very well. Penske knows he HAS to run the Chevy II in order to win the championship, that is why he is testing, not to find out if he likes it, but to find out how to best run it. Tell you what, you think he is going to run the old engine, take it to ToldJaSo, bet whatever you like on it, up to 500 points, I'll cover. Then if you are right and he does run the old engine, I'll bet whatever I have left that a Penske car doesn't win the points.

Kaaveh, the extra HP comes at no cost, the two engines are equally reliable, and having the new one wont hurt the handles.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Mackie ]

[mesquite]

Whatever the case, don't expect to see Gil "racing" for much of the Chicago race. I expect him to feel the afternoon out, then running accordingly.

As for Texas, ... if they let a bunch of cars on that track, you can almost expect a last man standing type of thing. 1st timers, vvankers, and ill prepared teams at Texas ?? ... pretty dangerous. Fuel strategy might actually help with all those yellows.

[SJH forever]

Originally posted by Kaaveh:
<STRONG>I'd just like to point out here that I can confirm Helio finished in the top 5 at Texas (4th) while Sam Hornish Jr. didn't even place in the top 15 (18th). So, as you see, much more goes into this besides horsepower...not to mention that Chicago is going to require a good handling car...Penske will be fine with either engine they use...</STRONG>

But Eddie took Sam out of the race, so it wasn't a question of Sam's car not running. If I remember correctly, they had a wheel come off after a pit stop, but before and after that, Sam had one of the fasttest running cars on the track, and was passing left and right to make his way back up front. So your reasoning has a flaw ...

[Kaaveh]

Originally posted by Mackie:
<STRONG>because he gives away 25 HP, remember the last tekas race when Helio was in the lead and was passed by three cars in one lap. Penske can't be in a position where two or three cars are between his cars and Sam, with Sam ahead, not and win the championship. Understand now "K"? That is why he is testing, I would love him to use the "old," that way he is not a factor in the win. Look back at all the high speed tracks, the Penske's were slow. Their wins, Phoenix, PPIR and Gateway, besides Indy, all handling tracks, Chicagoland and Texas are speed tracks, get it?</STRONG>

Whoa! What's with the sarcasm? Horsepower is big in racing, yes, I completely agree, however, it's not the ONLY thing...I'd just like to point out here that I can confirm Helio finished in the top 5 at Texas (4th) while Sam Hornish Jr. didn't even place in the top 15 (18th). So, as you see, much more goes into this besides horsepower...not to mention that Chicago is going to require a good handling car...Penske will be fine with either engine they use...

[tjgje]

Are they testing today? Anybody live near the track?

[nm]

As for testing at Chicagoland and TMS, Sarah said after KY that D&R would test at every track left.

[Indyfan4ever]

I'm suprised it took Roger this long to contemplate the switch.

Why give up the horses?.

Unlike Penske not to take every "advantage".

Tj