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  • Hey CamKing, a question.

    How much horsepower do you think the present day F1 engines produce, with the ultra-high revs and pnuematic valves?

  • #2
    I don't know. I need to know what the stroke is, and what RPM they make peak power at. The RPM #'s they are throwing around are max RPM, and that is way beyond peak power on a road racing engine.
    "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

    J. Michael Ringham
    Vice President, Marketing
    IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

    www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

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    • #3
      There seems to be some commentary that suggests this is no longer the case, at least when the RPM limit gets as high as these engines are turning. There would be nothing useful in building an engine that could turn 18k with a power peak at 16k and a steep fall off. These cars have enough gears to handle a narrower powerband than would have been considered useful just a decade ago. Moving the location of that band to the top of the rev limit makes the most sense.

      Originally posted by CamKing:
      <STRONG>I don't know. I need to know what the stroke is, and what RPM they make peak power at. The RPM #'s they are throwing around are max RPM, and that is way beyond peak power on a road racing engine.</STRONG>
      Peter Olivola ([email protected])
      "Too dumb for opera
      too smart for NASCAR"

      Comment


      • #4
        All I asked for was a good educated guess as to the HP, I wasn't going to use it as ammo to fire a salvo at anyone. I think pnuematic valves are a huge saving in horsepower, the power it robs from the normal engine opening and closing the valves. Just as OHC's save HP over a pushrod engine. With an IRL engine at say 730/745 HP (my guess), with a rev-limiter, I would expect a F1 engine to be over 800 HP, but how much over? There is no such thing as a free ride though, I expect the engine has to drive an air compressor of some sort. Sorry that I can't give CK bore and stroke info, I know what he needs. I expect the stroke to be short though, those engines aren't very "tall," and they scream.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
          <STRONG>There seems to be some commentary that suggests this is no longer the case, at least when the RPM limit gets as high as these engines are turning. There would be nothing useful in building an engine that could turn 18k with a power peak at 16k and a steep fall off. These cars have enough gears to handle a narrower powerband than would have been considered useful just a decade ago. Moving the location of that band to the top of the rev limit makes the most sense.

          </STRONG>
          As long as there are a limited # of gears, an engine will be faster if they run it past peak power before they shift. F1 engines have a very short stroke, and don't make a lot of torque. they need to shift past peak power to keep the engine high enough on the torque curve after it shifts.
          "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

          J. Michael Ringham
          Vice President, Marketing
          IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

          www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mackie:
            <STRONG>All I asked for was a good educated guess as to the HP, I wasn't going to use it as ammo to fire a salvo at anyone. I think pnuematic valves are a huge saving in horsepower, the power it robs from the normal engine opening and closing the valves. Just as OHC's save HP over a pushrod engine. With an IRL engine at say 730/745 HP (my guess), with a rev-limiter, I would expect a F1 engine to be over 800 HP, but how much over? There is no such thing as a free ride though, I expect the engine has to drive an air compressor of some sort. Sorry that I can't give CK bore and stroke info, I know what he needs. I expect the stroke to be short though, those engines aren't very "tall," and they scream.</STRONG>
            An IRL engine makes 650-690 HP.

            From what I can tell an F1 engine would make 750-780hp.

            The pneumatic valve system doesn't save HP, it just makes it possible to run the engine @ higher RPMs. The pneumatic system uses air pressure to hold the valve closed instead of valve springs. It still takes HP for the cams to push against the pressure to open the valves. One thing you have to remember when comparing HP #'s between the IRL engine and an F1 engine is the F1 engine has to run gasoline, and can't use as much compression as a alcohol engine, plus alcohol is good for 6% gain in HP over gasoline.
            "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

            J. Michael Ringham
            Vice President, Marketing
            IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

            www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CamKing:
              <STRONG>One thing you have to remember when comparing HP #'s between the IRL engine and an F1 engine is the F1 engine has to run gasoline, and can't use as much compression as a alcohol engine, plus alcohol is good for 6% gain in HP over gasoline.</STRONG>
              When you say alcohol, you are talking about Methanol, correct? It is my understanding that grain alcohol (Ethanol) loses HP over gasoline. Is that correct?

              [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: LorenzoBandini ]
              "The problem with internet quotes and statistics is that often times, they're wrongfully believed to be real." - Abraham Lincoln

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              • #8
                I was talking methenol. I have no idea what kind of power ethenol makes, I'll have to look in one of my books.
                "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

                J. Michael Ringham
                Vice President, Marketing
                IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

                www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  That's true for a power curve of certain shapes and doesn't require a steep drop off. Those curves may or may not be the most drivable even though they make the most peak power, however. Even with a narrow power band, road racing wants a relatively flat curve in the band. It's generally worth trading off a small difference in peak for a flatter curve.

                  In a different direction, since gearing is track specific, the lack of infinite gears is not an absolute problem and the advent of clutchless shifting allows for much tighter calculations on shift points which further devalues the reving past peak approach.

                  Originally posted by CamKing:
                  <STRONG>As long as there are a limited # of gears, an engine will be faster if they run it past peak power before they shift. F1 engines have a very short stroke, and don't make a lot of torque. they need to shift past peak power to keep the engine high enough on the torque curve after it shifts.</STRONG>
                  Peter Olivola ([email protected])
                  "Too dumb for opera
                  too smart for NASCAR"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Peter you are missing the point.

                    say an engine makes
                    690hp @14,000rpm
                    720hp @15,000
                    750hp @16,000 peak power
                    730hp @17,000

                    If the engine is going tp drop 2,000rpm during a gear change it would run faster if the engine went to 17,000rpm before you shifted. No matter how flat the power curve the curve is going to be flatter beyond peak power than before peak power.
                    "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

                    J. Michael Ringham
                    Vice President, Marketing
                    IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

                    www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Is it? As I said originally, there is some commentary indicating that's not the case when the RPM gets this high. Guessing, the problem is related to charge velocity as it approaches compressability. The kind of precision port and chamber shaping required to get these revs to work may be reaching the point of diminishing return and we could well see rev limits determined by something other than valve acutation issues.

                      Originally posted by CamKing:
                      <STRONG>Peter you are missing the point.

                      say an engine makes
                      690hp @14,000rpm
                      720hp @15,000
                      750hp @16,000 peak power
                      730hp @17,000

                      If the engine is going tp drop 2,000rpm during a gear change it would run faster if the engine went to 17,000rpm before you shifted. No matter how flat the power curve the curve is going to be flatter beyond peak power than before peak power.</STRONG>
                      Peter Olivola ([email protected])
                      "Too dumb for opera
                      too smart for NASCAR"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Peter, you could be right, but I have never seen it on the single cylinder motor cycle engines that turn 17k. The ports on those engines are very close to the F1 engines.
                        "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

                        J. Michael Ringham
                        Vice President, Marketing
                        IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

                        www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mackie:
                          All I asked for was a good educated guess as to the HP.....
                          Mackie:

                          It's likely anything we read about Formula One engine horsepower is an educated guess......the teams don't typically release that data.

                          However, for the 2001 season it was assumed (presumed) that BMW was making about 840 HP. The Ferrari and Mercedes engines were around 10 - 15 less. I believe Honda and Ford were around 800.

                          The new 110 degree Renault, although having a much lower center of gravity, was quite a bit down on power to the others. Estimates in the 750 - 775 range at the end of the season.

                          All the teams in the upper half of the grid are expected to improve on these figures this season, with BMW still leading the way.

                          GV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            "....with BMW still leading the way."

                            Some things are right in the world of motorsports.

                            "You people worry too much. Strive for change. Root for your favorites. Enjoy the racing. Drop the flag." rev-ed, 3/04

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GrandView:
                              <STRONG>

                              However, for the 2001 season it was assumed (presumed) that BMW was making about 840 HP. The Ferrari and Mercedes engines were around 10 - 15 less. I believe Honda and Ford were around 800.
                              </STRONG>
                              If those are the #s being thrown around, I feel comfortable with my 750-780 estimate. Dyno numbers are like fish stories, they get bigger every time you tell them. Remember CART tells people their engines produce 900hp, and there is no way in **** they even come close.
                              "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

                              J. Michael Ringham
                              Vice President, Marketing
                              IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

                              www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

                              Comment

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