when those "stars" leave for greener pastures

[Tara]

Kaaveh wrote something in a thread below that I found interesting and I didn't want the discussion buried so I'm starting a new thread here. The discussion was the importance of nationality of IRL drivers, as it relates to over all series appeal.

Kaaveh’s question:

what happens when those "stars" leave for greener pastures (retirement, other series, etc.)?

Kaaveh you claim the drivers mean little to the overall popularity of the IRL series, but I suggest you take a look at history.

Look at 1960, I believe all starters at Indy were born state side or at least
raised here. In the 1960 Indianapolis 500 you had: Eddie Sachs, Jim Rathman, Roger Ward, Dick Rathman, Len Sutton, Troy Ruttman, Don Branson, Jimmy Bryan, Lloyd Ruby, Johnny Boyd, A.J.Foyt, Tony Bettenhausen, Jim Hurtabise, and Duane Carter. It was easy for the American public to pick an American driver and root for him. These were the top American drivers of the time and their names remained in Indy car racing for a number of years.

In 1965, I believe there were only two foreign born/raised drivers, Jimmy Clark and Mario Andretti. Clark won the race, and Andretti won rookie of the year, but both had to beat big time American talent like: A.J.Foyt, Parnelli Jones, Dan Gurney, Lloyd Ruby, Billy Foster, Johnny Rutherford, Gordon Johncock, Don Branson, Jim Hurtubise, Roger McClusky, and Joe Leonard. Even Andretti was considered by most to be an American driver, having gain citizen status after his parents brought him to the states at age 15. The American race fans didn't mind seeing top foreign talent take on the yanks or even beat them, just as long as America's top talent was their to compete.

In 1975, I believe there was only one foreign born/raised driver, Eldon Rasmussen (Canada). The big names were still American: Foyt, Johncock, the Unsers, Sneva, Mosley, Rutherford, Grant, Parsons, McClusky, Bettenhausen, Dallenbach, Andretti, even NASCAR star Bobby Allison took a shot at wining the Borg-Warner trophy.

Not only did you still have a vast majority of American talent in the race, but look at the longevity of the names Foyt drove at Indy for 35 years, Mario Andretti for 29 years and Michael for 14. (It will be 15 this year). Al Unser had 27 starts while his brother Bobby had 19. Gordon Johncock and J.R . each did 24 races. George Snyder had 22, Gary B. had 21, Roger McClusky, Tom Sneva, and Lloyd Ruby had 18 starts each.

However by 1990 almost a third of Indy's starting grid was foreign born. Ten out of 33 positions were then filled with drivers with names like: Fittipaldi, Luyendyk, Dobson, Boesel, Guerrero, Theys, Palmroth and Fabi. Sure there are very good drivers on that list that were assets to the race and American fans still had American stars like Mears, Rahal, Andretti, Unser, Foyt, Sullivan, Cheever and Sneva, to root for, but the composition of the field was definitely changing.

By 1995, 19 of the 33 positions were filled with foreign born drivers. Drivers with last names like: Luyendyk, Villeneuve, Gugelmin, Matsushita, Ribiero, Guerrero, Fabi, Zampedri, de Ferran, Matsuda, Boesel, Salazar, Fernandez, Bachelart, Johansson. Yes American fans still had American drivers to root for like: Andretti, Robby Gordon, Scott Pruett, Jimmy Vasser, Eddie Cheever, Danny Sullivan, Bobby Rahal, Buddy Lazier, Scott Sharp and Brian Herta, but more than half the field was foreign born.

Look at the Daytona 500 starting grid in 1995, people like Jeff Gordon, John Andretti, and Wally Dallenbach, drivers you would assume to be headed toward a career in open wheeled racing were now driving stock cars, in NASCAR. And not by choice, but because competative rides were not available to them in Indy car.

Remember NASCAR star Tim Richmond, who was 1980 rookie of the year at Indy. Tim had trouble getting a good ride in Indy cars after 1981 and headed South where he found not only a good ride, tons of success, fame and fortune. And probably would have continued to win if not for AIDS.

When I look at Indy of the past, racing names like Jones, Rutherford, Ruby, Hurtubise, Sachs, Rathman, Ward, Sutton, Ruttman, Branson, Bryan, Boyd, Bettenhausen, Mears, Andretti, Foyt, Rahal all jump out at me as the best known American drivers of their time. You didn’t even have to use a first name to identify the person or family you were talking about, everybody knew, and they were racing Indy cars.

Today the best known American names in racing are Jarrett, Gordon, Stewart, Earnhardt, Martin, Wallace, Waltrip, Labonte, Irwin, Schrader, Petty and Kenseth and again only a last name is needed, however there is a big difference, they run in NASCAR, not in Indy cars. Mears won the Daytona 24hours race and almost won the Daytona 500. Its sort of sad he doesn't race Indy cars isn't it.

So to answer your question what happens when those "stars" leave for greener pastures(retirement, other series, etc.)?

Answer: You loose your American fan base to the series that gains their replacements, in this case NASCAR.

[Brickyard500]

Wow. Another "NASCAR is bad and only is popular because it stole our drivers" thread.

Look at the Daytona 500 starting grid in 1995, people like Jeff Gordon, John Andretti, and Wally Dallenbach, drivers you would assume to be headed toward a career in open wheeled racing were now driving stock cars, in NASCAR. And not by choice, but because competative rides were not available to them in Indy car.

Jeff Gordon did choose to go stock car racing. He told his dad to sell his OW equiptment so he could buy SC equiptment.
John Andretti. Was in IndyCars. Won a race in IndyCars. How was he not given a chance?
Wally Dallenbach. Would anybody really want this guy driving in their series?

[Jimmy Hendricks]

Tara, you are spot on.

Was it just coincidence that ratings/interest/popularity of open-wheel racing was at its peak in the 70's and 80's in this country? Uhh, no it wasn't.

Take a look at the 2006 Daytona starting lineup. Anybody wanna bet that 25 years ago, Robby Gordon, Kasey Kahne, Tony Stewart, Carl Edwards, Casey Mears, Ken Schrader, JJ Yeley, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman and Kurt Busch would be preparing for the Indy 500 instead of the World 600?

I did a study on this very topic last May (even started a thread on it). I looked at the Indy 500 starting lineups from the early 70's until now. The 500 fields from the early 70's to late 80's were all consistantly around 90% American drivers. That percentage steadily went down from 1990 to 1995. The IRL started in 96' and that percentage started slowly going back the other way. Since 2003, once again, the percentages have fallen steadily (with the lowest percentage of Americans being last year at Indy; the lowest in the past 50 years; if not ever).

The 500 was never really an International event (like so many want to say that it was). It had a few non-Americans every year, but it was the Great American Race. It isn't that way anymore.

[Kaaveh]

So, if I'm correct in interpreting your hypothesis, when the stars leave, fans leave?

I agree with this. Why not?

So why focus all your energy marketing the stars? Market the sport, and get people to fall in love with the sport. As stars come and go, fans will stay.

You've just exhibited why putting your eggs in the driver basket is not the right way to go.

Or does that make too much sense?

Why is the NFL so popular? Because of the participants, or because it's the NFL? Are people going to stop watching if Canadians, Mexicans, and South Americans starting getting into the starting lineups?

[THIRD TURN]

Kaaveh wrote something in a thread below that I found interesting and I didn't want the discussion buried so I'm starting a new thread here. The discussion was the importance of nationality of IRL drivers, as it relates to over all series appeal.

Kaaveh’s question:



Kaaveh you claim the drivers mean little to the overall popularity of the IRL series, but I suggest you take a look at history.

Look at 1960, I believe all starters at Indy were born state side or at least
raised here. In the 1960 Indianapolis 500 you had: Eddie Sachs, Jim Rathman, Roger Ward, Dick Rathman, Len Sutton, Troy Ruttman, Don Branson, Jimmy Bryan, Lloyd Ruby, Johnny Boyd, A.J.Foyt, Tony Bettenhausen, Jim Hurtabise, and Duane Carter. It was easy for the American public to pick an American driver and root for him. These were the top American drivers of the time and their names remained in Indy car racing for a number of years.

In 1965, I believe there were only two foreign born/raised drivers, Jimmy Clark and Mario Andretti. Clark won the race, and Andretti won rookie of the year, but both had to beat big time American talent like: A.J.Foyt, Parnelli Jones, Dan Gurney, Lloyd Ruby, Billy Foster, Johnny Rutherford, Gordon Johncock, Don Branson, Jim Hurtubise, Roger McClusky, and Joe Leonard. Even Andretti was considered by most to be an American driver, having gain citizen status after his parents brought him to the states at age 15. The American race fans didn't mind seeing top foreign talent take on the yanks or even beat them, just as long as America's top talent was their to compete.

In 1975, I believe there was only one foreign born/raised driver, Eldon Rasmussen (Canada). The big names were still American: Foyt, Johncock, the Unsers, Sneva, Mosley, Rutherford, Grant, Parsons, McClusky, Bettenhausen, Dallenbach, Andretti, even NASCAR star Bobby Allison took a shot at wining the Borg-Warner trophy.

Not only did you still have a vast majority of American talent in the race, but look at the longevity of the names Foyt drove at Indy for 35 years, Mario Andretti for 29 years and Michael for 14. (It will be 15 this year). Al Unser had 27 starts while his brother Bobby had 19. Gordon Johncock and J.R . each did 24 races. George Snyder had 22, Gary B. had 21, Roger McClusky, Tom Sneva, and Lloyd Ruby had 18 starts each.

However by 1990 almost a third of Indy's starting grid was foreign born. Ten out of 33 positions were then filled with drivers with names like: Fittipaldi, Luyendyk, Dobson, Boesel, Guerrero, Theys, Palmroth and Fabi. Sure there are very good drivers on that list that were assets to the race and American fans still had American stars like Mears, Rahal, Andretti, Unser, Foyt, Sullivan, Cheever and Sneva, to root for, but the composition of the field was definitely changing.

By 1995, 19 of the 33 positions were filled with foreign born drivers. Drivers with last names like: Luyendyk, Villeneuve, Gugelmin, Matsushita, Ribiero, Guerrero, Fabi, Zampedri, de Ferran, Matsuda, Boesel, Salazar, Fernandez, Bachelart, Johansson. Yes American fans still had American drivers to root for like: Andretti, Robby Gordon, Scott Pruett, Jimmy Vasser, Eddie Cheever, Danny Sullivan, Bobby Rahal, Buddy Lazier, Scott Sharp and Brian Herta, but more than half the field was foreign born.

Look at the Daytona 500 starting grid in 1995, people like Jeff Gordon, John Andretti, and Wally Dallenbach, drivers you would assume to be headed toward a career in open wheeled racing were now driving stock cars, in NASCAR. And not by choice, but because competative rides were not available to them in Indy car.

Remember NASCAR star Tim Richmond, who was 1980 rookie of the year at Indy. Tim had trouble getting a good ride in Indy cars after 1981 and headed South where he found not only a good ride, tons of success, fame and fortune. And probably would have continued to win if not for AIDS.

When I look at Indy of the past, racing names like Jones, Rutherford, Ruby, Hurtubise, Sachs, Rathman, Ward, Sutton, Ruttman, Branson, Bryan, Boyd, Bettenhausen, Mears, Andretti, Foyt, Rahal all jump out at me as the best known American drivers of their time. You didn’t even have to use a first name to identify the person or family you were talking about, everybody knew, and they were racing Indy cars.

Today the best known American names in racing are Jarrett, Gordon, Stewart, Earnhardt, Martin, Wallace, Waltrip, Labonte, Irwin, Schrader, Petty and Kenseth and again only a last name is needed, however there is a big difference, they run in NASCAR, not in Indy cars. Mears won the Daytona 24hours race and almost won the Daytona 500. Its sort of sad he doesn't race Indy cars isn't it.

So to answer your question what happens when those "stars" leave for greener pastures(retirement, other series, etc.)?

Answer: You loose your American fan base to the series that gains their replacements, in this case NASCAR.

Bingo!!!!!!! What you have just posted is so obviously right on that it is incredible to me that there is any argument regarding your conclusions.

Regarding the situation with Indianapolis Car Racing I divide everyone up into two groups: Those who get it and those who don't. You obviously get it.

[Ringleader]

I think there a two things consider here. Up untill the 50's there was only one, shall we call it, superspeedway in the U.S. and that was Indy. Also one 500 miler. It also payed more than any other race of the time which made it unique. The field, for the most part, was made up of drivers who the average race fan could watch on a regular basis at the local short tracks in Midgets, Spints, or the Big Cars on the miles. With out TV a fan could see the stars up close and personal and form an association with their favorites then they followed them to the big show to see how they would do. It was great to go to the speedway and root for a guy you talked to and got an autograph from at a midget race or at a 100 miler and see the guy driving a speedway car. Today, where can one go to see an Indy driver race other than Indy or Daytona? No personal attatchment.

The other factor is the influance of the sports car racers in Indy racing. Their background and type of racing was not based on fan support, i.e., paying fans in the stands. The mind set was and is differnt, I'll run for a trophy, I'm not doing this for a living. I can spend what ever it takes.

I think the impact of TV was and is lost on the current heads of state, less short track connection and names that are difficult to market because of the disconnection.

I don't mind the names I can't spell, but I would like to see a few of them at Springfield or Duquoin this summer.

[jkg]

So, if I'm correct in interpreting your hypothesis, when the stars leave, fans leave?

I agree with this. Why not?

Because as they watch their favorite stars, they find new favorites. Many of the people that liked Mario, AJ, or one of the Unsers was able to become fans of Little Al, Michael, or Rick. But when those guys retired, the replacements didn't register with the American public, but Tony, Dale, and Jeff certainly did.

The sports that saw growth in TV ratings in the 90's, NASCAR, the NFL, and PGA tour are all dominated by Americans. A sport can succeed and have a sizable minority of foreigners to add flavor (like golf), but Americans want to watch Americans.

[Kaaveh]

Because as they watch their favorite stars, they find new favorites. Many of the people that liked Mario, AJ, or one of the Unsers was able to become fans of Little Al, Michael, or Rick. But when those guys retired, the replacements didn't register with the American public, but Tony, Dale, and Jeff certainly did.

The sports that saw growth in TV ratings in the 90's, NASCAR, the NFL, and PGA tour are all dominated by Americans. A sport can succeed and have a sizable minority of foreigners to add flavor (like golf), but Americans want to watch Americans.

Again, no statistical support exists that "Americans want to watch Americans." See my challenge in the thread Tara refers to. The only evidence we see here to this hypothesis is "my friends say so, and other I talk to agree."

...and your assumption is that, once people watch a sport because of the participant, they'll fall in love with other participants. This snow-ball effect will happen no matter how one gets into the initial viewing of the sport.

Look, I never said that drivers are not important to the popularity to the IRL. I said that, in the big picture, they are not the answer to growing the popularity.

People around here have an idealistic view of how things could be. If the sport could be all-American, people here could shutup. It will NEVER happen. At best, the IRL will be 50% American, and that isn't going to happen any time soon. People need to accept that.

We can only play the cards we have dealt. If you all have established that NASCAR has all the stars, why would anyone waste their time trying to compete with those stars? Our stars can't beat their stars.

So then what can we use to compete to gain an increase in market share? The product! The product is going to out-last any participant.

If the product is what's garnering the attention, publicity, and spurring growth, everything else will just be icing on the cake (ie popular drivers).

AJ FOYT: "I DID NOT MAKE INDIANAPOLIS. INDIANAPOLIS MADE ME."

Are you going to try and tell me that AJ Foyt is just as clueless as me?

[THIRD TURN]

So, if I'm correct in interpreting your hypothesis, when the stars leave, fans leave?

I agree with this. Why not?

So why focus all your energy marketing the stars? Market the sport, and get people to fall in love with the sport. As stars come and go, fans will stay.

You've just exhibited why putting your eggs in the driver basket is not the right way to go.

Or does that make too much sense?

Why is the NFL so popular? Because of the participants, or because it's the NFL? Are people going to stop watching if Canadians, Mexicans, and South Americans starting getting into the starting lineups?

I can guarantee you that if foreign drivers started coming into Nascar that you would see a drastic drop off in their popularity, attendance, and TV ratings. And if they went to 50% road courses they would be finished in this country.

Is there anyone who seriously believes otherwise?

[Tara]

Brickyard 500 posted

Wow. Another "NASCAR is bad and only is popular because it stole our drivers" thread.

Questions:

1.) Where did I say NASCAR is bad?
2.) Where did I say NASCAR stole our drivers?
3.) When have I ever slammed NASCAR?

Answers:

1.) I didn't
2.) I didn't
3.) I never have

NASCAR isn't bad and the people leading the series have done a great job marketing it. When I watched the Daytona 500 this year and listened to the starting line up, I wished Indy car still attracted the top American talent. Sadly, for Indy car fans, it no longer does. With a few exceptions, like Sam Hornish, NASCAR attracts most U.S. up and comers. Does Tony Stewart have a strong desire to run the Indy 500? Of course he does, but I don't expect to see him any time soon.

NASCAR never stole "our drivers". Indy car changed. It became a road/street/oval series. Costs were not contained and it became very expensive, to the point that drivers needed to bring large sums of cash with them to get a ride. Both issues increased the likelihood of owners recruiting foreign road racers with foreign backing rather than American oval racers with no sugar daddies. American drivers went to NASCAR, nobody stole anybody. But indeed Indy car lost its American stars.

The only way the IRL is going to compete with NASCAR for top American talent is if there are doors open to American drivers without the need for the driver to bring a ton of cash. I also believe the IRL needs to be oval centric since most American short track drivers come from an oval background. The IRL can do a few road races, but they need to do more than 50% ovals. My opinion 75% or greater. The IRL also needs to market its drivers. NASCAR successfully made its drivers household names, the IRL needs to do the same.

Please note Brickyard 500 it is not a slam at NASCAR to hope that Indy car racing can regain its status as the league where the best drivers from America race. Sure NASCAR fans like things the way they are, but I'm an Indy car fan (Not a NASCAR hater) and I want the best American drivers in Indy car.

[Kaaveh]

I can guarantee you that if foreign drivers started coming into Nascar that you would see a drastic drop off in their popularity, attendance, and TV ratings. And if they went to 50% road courses they would be finished in this country.

Is there anyone who seriously believes otherwise?

Not sure why you used my quote as your starting point, as it has nothing to do with your remarks. Market the hell out of those NASCAR drivers. What happens if they all left?

Hence why you shouldn't put the major focus on the drivers...for long-term solutions, you need to look at the bigger picture.

If you have a rebuttal for my remarks about the NFL, feel free to add on...

[jkg]

Again, no statistical support exists that "Americans want to watch Americans." See my challenge in the thread Tara refers to. The only evidence we see here to this hypothesis is "my friends say so, and other I talk to agree."

I have no desire to engage is some silly poll where the wording of the question will determine the outcome. However, the body of evidence that Americans want to watch Americans is far more evident than water cooler chatter. As I metioned earlier, NASCAR, the NFL, and the PGA Tour bucked the trend in sports ratings and saw increases in the 90's and so far this decade. They are American dominated sports.

Other sports became more international. Baseball, the NBA, and the NHL all saw a tremendous influsion of foreigners and saw ratings decreases. Look how unpopular tennis on TV is now compared to the heyday of Connors and McEnroe or even more recently with the Sampras / Agassi battles.

Foreigners can occasionally become major stars in the US. Guys like Greg Norman have become huge stars here that drew big crowds, based on excellence and/or charmisma, but guys like him are the exception. Americans have a far easier path in this country.

Look, I never said that drivers are not important to the popularity to the IRL. I said that, in the big picture, they are not the answer to growing the popularity.

The aren't the complete answer, but you are going to get plenty of partial credit if that problem gets fixed. The IRL saw a pretty signficant increase in the Indy 500 and subsequent races' TV ratings because of one driver. The sport didn't change at all. That driver appealed to the American public. Her looks helped, but being an American kid from Illinois sure didn't hurt.

People around here have an idealistic view of how things could be. If the sport could be all-American, people here could shutup. It will NEVER happen. At best, the IRL will be 50% American, and that isn't going to happen any time soon. People need to accept that.

We can only play the cards we have dealt. If you all have established that NASCAR has all the stars, why would anyone waste their time trying to compete with those stars? Our stars can't beat their stars.

I've definitely accepted it. Ever since the non-American and future strangling invasion that made up the rookie classes at Indy in the early 90's, I've realized that Americans will never again make up the overwhelming majority of the Indy field. And that is a major reason why, despite a good product, the series is incredibly behind the Cup juggernaut.

AJ FOYT: "I DID NOT MAKE INDIANAPOLIS. INDIANAPOLIS MADE ME."

No, Foyt is definitely correct. The Indy 500 can make the stars (i.e. Danica), but Foyt also created a ton of buzz for Indy Cars and racing in general in his heyday. It's a two way street.

I'm not suggesting that if 33 Americans take the green this May that all will be well and the sport will be as popular as Cup, but as long as guys like Tomas Enge and Kosuke Matsuura are getting rides over Buddy Lazier and Jeff Simmons, there isn't much hope for a big increase in popularity.

[Tara]

And Kaaveh

You suggest we market the sport not the drivers. I say there is no real chance to grow the sport, without drivers the fans can relate to.

The sport lost fans as foreign road racers took over a majority of the Indy car fields. The fans left as the local American drivers no longer could make it into Indy cars and went to NASCAR. And NASCAR's popularity grew.

The thing that happened in Indy cars is the big name American drivers all left the series, but instead of being replaced by Jeff Gordon, Tim Richmond,...etc, thety were replaced by foreign drivers. Having Emmo was a plus for Indy cars just like Clark was in 1965, but having 19 of 33 drivers foreign born in 1995 was not good. As NASCAR looses its drivers it replaces them with the new American talant. (guys like Stewart, Newman, Earnhardt Jr, Carl Edwards, Kasey Kahne ...etc).

The only way Indy car racing is going to grow, is if the American fan sees a path to Indy cars for American drivers. If the fans can find that special someone to root for. If your average Joe Blow tunes into Indy and sees a handful of American drivers against a mostly foreign field the sport will remain nitch.

[CamKing]

No, Foyt is definitely correct. The Indy 500 can make the stars (i.e. Danica), but Foyt also created a ton of buzz for Indy Cars and racing in general in his heyday. It's a two way street.

It's not a 2 way street when the winners are drivers like JV and JPM.
When the winner is only using Indy to get to F1, he's not giving much back to Indy or Indy Car racing.

[sf-indy-fan]

If this is true, then it would follow that baseball, too, would be more popular if there were fewer Latin American players. But would it really? Of course not.

Indycar racing has become more international over the last 25 years because the whole world has become more international over the last 25 years. It's becoming harder and harder to shut out the world beyond our borders, to the point where any effort to keep something that had always been considered an "American institution" American looks contrived and vaguely bigoted and xenophobic. This touches on the push-pull (I'd use the word "dialectic" but then you guys would think I'm a commie ) in American society of inclusion vs. exclusion. It's really just politics, of the global variety. I know it's a dirty word for many, but it's globalism/globalization. To think that auto racing exists in a vacuum, apart from this, is dead wrong.

NASCAR has largely been able to delay having to deal with this mainly because racing stock cars on ovals hasn't caught on (or is only starting to catch on) in other parts of the world. It certainly isn't because the best racecar drivers (regardless of whether they drive open wheel cars or stock cars and regardless of whether they drive on ovals or road courses) in the world are American.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when, in the not-too-distant future, a stock car driver rises out of the pack in, say, the UK, and he's (assuming it's a guy) good enough to beat Stewart, Gordon, and the rest on any given day. Will one of the NASCAR owners hire him simply because he can win? Or will the NASCAR high mucky-mucks be able to put enough pressure on said owner to pass on him because of the perception that a foreign-born NASCAR star would hurt the sport? Believe me, the day when that decision will have to be made is going to come, and, like I said, it'll sure be interesting to see how it plays out.

Of course, that day passed for American open wheel racing a long time ago. Personally, I'm glad that American OW opted for inclusion, just because it seems (to this liberal lunkhead, anyway ) like the right thing to do, even if it makes our favorite kind of racing a tougher sell to an American audience.

Don't blame Tony George for the balance between American-and foreign-born drivers in the IRL swinging back towards foreign-born in the last few years. Tony, in his little part of the world called Indycar racing, tried building a dam to control the unstoppable flow of globalization, and he actually succeeded for a few years. But an unstoppable flow is, well, unstoppable.

Now, the reason all the drivers we'd like to see in the IRL seem to wind up in NASCAR is, of course, that's where the money is. And the reason for that is that today, NASCAR is an 80,000 lb. gorilla. They were an 800 lb. gorilla in '95, an 8000 lb. gorilla in 2000, and now they're an 80,000 lb. gorilla, and as much as most here (myself included) don't want to admit it, the formation of the IRL contributed to this. And this despite the fact that I love (still do) the idea of the IRL. It was a wonderful idea, Tony, but BAAAAD timing. Kind of like being chased by the cops on the freeway and deciding to get off and stop for lunch at McDonalds.