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Honda to IndyCar: Do Not Delay 2022 Engine Rules!

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  • Honda to IndyCar: Do Not Delay 2022 Engine Rules!

    Just to catch everyone up, one year ago, IndyCar announced that the 2021-2026 2.4L V6 Turbo engine package would be delayed one year, and would then become a hybrid powerplant capable of 900HP. This was achieved with new agreements from Honda and Chevrolet. In June of this year, Frye again spoke to MP, letting him know that the series may attempt to role the new chassis out in segments, beginning in 2022 with the new engines. This would "soften" the financial blow to the teams, but Marshall wrote that so many changes would be needed for the new engine plus KERS-setup that you'd effectively be implementing most of the new chassis right away anyhow.

    Just a few days later, MP wrote another article in which Jay Frye openly wondered if they should delay the 2022 2.4L V6 Hybrid engine rules due to COVID-19. The presumption would be that the new V6 would debut in 2022 as planned, but that the hybrid partner would be delayed. It sounded like Frye was assuming this would actually be something the engine makers would want to do. Well, tonight, Honda's Ted Klaus threw some cold water on that, or maybe hot coffee. He told MP that HPD has already created the new V6, and due to COVID, they must evaluate priorities on what they spend on. He wants IndyCar to remain on the original August 2019 agreed schedule, because developing and installing the hybrid after the new engine is a "waste of time and money." They must be done at the same time, and it sounds like Klaus is insistent on doing the hybrid.

    Klaus goes on to say that the current engine is too old, and they are wasting tons of money on it as we speak, trying to get performance when there's next to nothing to gain. They are in turn stressing the engines more than they should. Chevrolet refused to comment. Klaus sounded pretty annoyed with IndyCar to be honest, and why they hadn't provided the actual rules and what the spec hybrid will be by now. Obviously, you can wonder if the courting of Ferrari has caused a delay, but if the KERS is to be spec, why would Ferrari care what they used? In any event, I think IndyCar needs to come up with some answers mighty quick, as apparently neither manufacturing is technically signed up beyond 2021....

    "If your car was a dog, then you had to figure it out and test your own limits. And we didn't go to a wind tunnel – we did it in the first turn at Indianapolis."

  • #2
    I'm sure the delay is due to courting Ferrari.
    Rest in peace, Dan Wheldon 1978 - 2011

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    • #3
      I can imagine some teams being nervous especially if they lost some money/sponsors because of COVID. It look tooth and nail to make the team switch over to today's formula and I'm sure it's not going to be easy this time around as well. The winners want to keep on winning while the smaller teams are scared they can't go forward buying all these new things. I guess even in racing a person has to put faith in the unknown and just do it. To have Indy hold the brakes just to wait another year or more would be disastrous and would pretty much take us back to where the series was when reunification happened (chassis/engine wise) the only difference is that we have two manufacturers instead of one.
      "The only good horsepower is usable horsepower.."

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      • #4
        It looks like floating the idea of a delay is due to the hope of Ferrari signing on

        That Klaus would toss out there that due to COVID, they must evaluate priorities on what they spend on says, they may always parrot the party line that they hope for more competition, they also don't want to be taken for granted. After saying they have already created the new engine.

        Chevrolet may or may not like delay, they may not want to want to join Honda's stance just to see what happens. They could accept having Ferrari as their only competition or be the sole supplier for a while. In that vein as the talks with Ferrari go on why not ask if they require competition or would be willing to be the sole supplier for a period of time. To be honest it's not like the epic battle between the spec engines with a single chassis of Chevrolet and Honda is such a hot topic of conversation driving the popularity of the series.
        "You can't arrest those guys, they're folk heroes"
        "They're criminals"
        "Well most folk heroes started out as criminals"

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        • #5
          Klaus goes on to say that the current engine is too old, and they are wasting tons of money on it as we speak, trying to get performance when there's next to nothing to gain.

          I thought when the new generation engine was announced that there was a "co-opetition" deal between Honda and GM that pretty much froze development for cost reasons and everyone felt there was essentially parity in performance. It was difficult tell how much was Penske magic on the Chevys because the other ones weren't good (exc Carpenter at Indy), but now with Arrow on board, they look pretty equal to me.
          Road racing is doomed...what this country needs is a big new racetrack designed for automobiles instead of horses. C.G. Fisher

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          • #6
            My biggest takeaway from article is how delusional manufacturers are thinking 66% of their sales will be electrified by 2030.

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            • #7
              EV market share is currently 2.6%.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TeamFoyt View Post
                My biggest takeaway from article is how delusional manufacturers are thinking 66% of their sales will be electrified by 2030.
                Electrified means both EVs and hybrids.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jim Wilke View Post
                  EV market share is currently 2.6%.
                  Perhaps not relevant to this thread...the new engine will be hybrid.


                  Current cheap gas has impacted both hybrid and full EV sales. COVID pandemic has really impacted ALL car sales.
                  Toyota says they're down 37% vs last year, but 1st quarter hybrid sales were up 80.5 percent from levels the previous year—mostly because of the addition of RAV4 Hybrid and Corolla Hybrid
                  Hybrids sold 400K in 2019,

                  https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ales-free-fall

                  BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TeamFoyt View Post
                    My biggest takeaway from article is how delusional manufacturers are thinking 66% of their sales will be electrified by 2030.
                    If it's driven by govt regs (CAFE, carbon taxes, etc), there may be little choice for the OEMS on taking this path.
                    But I agree in a free market with 2 buck gasoline, the economics aren't very appealing.
                    Road racing is doomed...what this country needs is a big new racetrack designed for automobiles instead of horses. C.G. Fisher

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nascarnation View Post

                      If it's driven by govt regs (CAFE, carbon taxes, etc), there may be little choice for the OEMS on taking this path.
                      But I agree in a free market with 2 buck gasoline, the economics aren't very appealing.
                      You could not be more wrong. The economics of hybrids are there now. I live with it every day.

                      I just was in the market for a new car and the choice came down to a Honda Accord EX-L 1.5t (top selling Accord) vs. a Hybrid version of the same car. The sticker price difference is $1,600. That works out that is 5.2% more than the 1.5t. And the Hybrid has more HP and significantly more torque. EPA estimate for the Hybrid is 48 mpg, while the 1.5t is 33. With Gas prices where they are, that 5.2% premium is covered in less than 30,000 miles. Plus, since the brakes are electrified, brake replacement will be significantly less often.

                      I am not going to bore everyone with what a technical tour de force this car is. But you have not lived until you are cruising down the highway at 75 on battery power only.

                      From a sales standpoint, Neither Honda nor Toyota can keep their SUV hybrids in stock, even in the present low cost gas environment.

                      I explored electric cars, but because I will be taking occasional trips of more than 5 hours to see grand children, BEVs don't make sense until a bunch of issues are resolved. The Hybrid was the perfect choice.

                      For those who say you can't get the epaulet mileage with a hybrid: I can and my leadfoot wife can. I average about 50 in the suburbs, while my wife averages about 47. On long highway trips at 75 mph, we get about 44.

                      ABOUT HONDA, INDYCAR and HYBRIDS: Looking our a couple of years you will start seeing performance hybrids from Honda and Acura, so Hybrid Racing will be more and more important to the brand.

                      The Acura NSX is already a Hybrid, and rumor is that the coming Acura Type-S will have hybrid versions.

                      The Honda Civic is being redesigned for the 2022 model year. Rumor is that the upcoming Civic Type R will be a hybrid as well, with motors driving the rear wheels while the engine drives the front. So Honda wants a Hybrid Indycar sooner rather than later.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nascarnation View Post
                        Klaus goes on to say that the current engine is too old, and they are wasting tons of money on it as we speak, trying to get performance when there's next to nothing to gain.

                        I thought when the new generation engine was announced that there was a "co-opetition" deal between Honda and GM that pretty much froze development for cost reasons and everyone felt there was essentially parity in performance. It was difficult tell how much was Penske magic on the Chevys because the other ones weren't good (exc Carpenter at Indy), but now with Arrow on board, they look pretty equal to me.
                        Homologation ended but they still try things. Or spend on other areas for minimal gain. They're probably bored if nothing else. Frye cannot keep delaying this. 10 years is long enough.
                        "If your car was a dog, then you had to figure it out and test your own limits. And we didn't go to a wind tunnel – we did it in the first turn at Indianapolis."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Includes the new sales of light duty gasoline vehicles including hybrid-electric vehicles (HEV), plug-in hybrid-electric vehicles (PHEV), and electric vehicles (EV). Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles include plug-in hybrid and extended range EVs but do not include neighborhood electric vehicles, low speed electric vehicles, or two-wheeled electric vehicles. A hybrid electric vehicle is a vehicle powered by a combination of battery-electric motor(s) and an internal combustion engine.

                          Hybrid vehicle sales began in 1999 and plug-in electric vehicle sales began in 2010. Hybrids captured 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2013 but were at 2% in 2019. Plug-in hybrids and all-electrics combined accounted for 2.1% of the light vehicle market in 2019.
                          https://www.bts.gov/content/gasoline...-vehicle-sales

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                          • #14
                            Honda is correct. The original schedule should be kept.

                            Also, last year there was a rumor that Honda wasn't happy after last year's 500. IndyCar added something like seven unnecessary caution laps after the late red flag to make sure that Pagenaud's more thirsty Chevy could race to the end. With that decision by the officials Rossi and Honda lost any possible fuel mileage advantage that they may have had.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by indyrjc View Post
                              Honda is correct. The original schedule should be kept.

                              Also, last year there was a rumor that Honda wasn't happy after last year's 500. IndyCar added something like seven unnecessary laps after the late red flag to make sure that Pagenaud's more thirsty Chevy could race to the end. With that decision by the officials Rossi and Honda lost any possible fuel mileage advantage that they may have had.
                              The folks at Honda weren’t the only ones who thought the needless yellow laps were bogus.
                              “With the help of God and true friends, I come to realize
                              I still got two strong legs, even wings to fly
                              I ain’t wastin’ time no more...”

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