Earning the respect of the "elitist" snobs!

[Mackie]

Originally posted by cartfan:
<STRONG>Mabe it can be explained to me,what guys who drive around a dirt track,power sliding(steering with both ends of the car does take talent)have do with Indy cars?

Maybe I just ignorant,but is the USAC Dirt trackers,what F3 and F3000 is to F1?</STRONG>

Well cartfan, the reason is that some of the heroes of the past like Andretti, Foyt, two Unsers, Rutherford and Rick Mears got their start "steering with both ends of the car" on dirt. In Mears' case it was off-road. Why was that the road to Indy then, but is the wrong road now? Maybe if you asked your Mom, she might remember too. In an earlier thread, cartfan pointed out that he saw the Treadway transporter on the highway, he said that he had told his Mom that knew that it was an IRL team because there wasn't any sponsorship on the car. In my caustic answer to him, I failed to point out that if it was a Treadway transporter, perhaps it was the one they used for Giaffone's car, maybe the Hollywood signage had been removed, maybe that was not the case, but it may have been an answer to his slam, and his intent here.

[Peter Olivola]

Continuing to deny the differences between the equipment in use when Andretti, Foyt, two Unsers, Rutherford and Rick Mears came into the sport and today is not an explanation for anything.

Originally posted by Mackie:
<STRONG>Well cartfan, the reason is that some of the heroes of the past like Andretti, Foyt, two Unsers, Rutherford and Rick Mears got their start "steering with both ends of the car" on dirt. In Mears' case it was off-road. Why was that the road to Indy then, but is the wrong road now? Maybe if you asked your Mom, she might remember too. In an earlier thread, cartfan pointed out that he saw the Treadway transporter on the highway, he said that he had told his Mom that knew that it was an IRL team because there wasn't any sponsorship on the car. In my caustic answer to him, I failed to point out that if it was a Treadway transporter, perhaps it was the one they used for Giaffone's car, maybe the Hollywood signage had been removed, maybe that was not the case, but it may have been an answer to his slam, and his intent here.</STRONG>

[Lucky161]

That's why you are the Professor!

[Mackie]

Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
<STRONG>Continuing to deny the differences between the equipment in use when Andretti, Foyt, two Unsers, Rutherford and Rick Mears came into the sport and today is not an explanation for anything. </STRONG>

Peter O, you are dead wrong, Andretti, Foyt, Rutherford and Bobby Unser came from the roadster era, all the rest came later, and all of them won Indy Car road races. Rutherford excelled in McLaren's but is most famous for his rides in Jim Hall's yellow submarine. Jim Hall may have been the ultimate road racer and designer, he had no problem with Johnny's roots. Hey, you could call Rutherford a "Gomer" too. He drove Smokey's '63 Chevy at Daytona the same year he was a rookie at Indy. Al Unser's rookie year was 1965, and he drove a Lola Ford, out of Sprints and Pikes peak, he had no trouble going to rear engine cars, even in his rookie year, at speed, on a track that was 2.5 miles. And forgive me all of you, I have failed to mention Parnelli, who turned out to be a darn good road racer, maybe even better then that. He started on the dirt tracks of California, in Midgets and Sprints. At Indy he called his first rear engine car a funny car, and coined a new phrase. You guys can try and justify your narrow minded thinking all you want, but in the end you are like the owners that won't give these guys a chance, and you're wrong! You are right about one thing though, all but Mears came along before the owners closed their minds and found it easier to hire foreign drivers, with road racing roots.

[MicroRacer]

I definitely think YOU are right Mackie.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by rodneyh:
<STRONG>

• Tracy
• Fernandez
• Kanaan
• Castroneves
• DaMatta
• Carpentier
• Villeneuve

Potentially

• Dixon
• Giaffone
• Servia
• And personally, no accident, driving for Penske as planned, Greg Moore, would have gone down as one of the greatest of all-time when he was through.

Outside of Fernandez, nobody on that international list really has any kind of following in the States to create popularity, and these drivers are more likely to have higher aspirations abroad.

]</STRONG>

I would argue that Tracy has quite a large following for an open wheeler. He markets his own Kart chassis and team. I think most people don't distinguish between US and Can. drivers. Its the guys from down south (non North Americans) that seem to raise the ire of some people. I also think Greg Moore was on his way to being quite a name.

As for road racers treating American racing as a stepping stone. Well, Duh! Like Soccer, the rest of the planet treats F1 like gold! The lowliest ride buyer makes $$$ for himself in endorsements (at least). You can argue the racing isn't as good (I think it's boring) but there isn't an SCCA Formula Vee driver that wouldn't like a crack at making $35M for taking the Jordan to a 6th place finish every other weekend. And being a celebrity everywhere (except N. America.)!

I think the argument as to why more dirt trackers aren't in the IRL should focus less on the why there are road racers taking up seats and what can be done to bridge the gap to the circle trackers. Maybe a series that bridges the new Infiniti and the WOO, Silver Crown type guys. Maybe some incentive money to run X number of races in each series or a points championship. Your points in the Inf. series plus X percent of your points for the USAC tracks (more races...need to figure out a formula) = Champ.

Maybe we need to just add that bigass wing to the top of the Infiniti series cars!
Hey, it's prime signage!

[Professor Joe]

Originally posted by Invader Zim:
<STRONG>As for road racers treating American racing as a stepping stone. Well, Duh! Like Soccer, the rest of the planet treats F1 like gold! The lowliest ride buyer makes $$$ for himself in endorsements (at least). You can argue the racing isn't as good (I think it's boring) but there isn't an SCCA Formula Vee driver that wouldn't like a crack at making $35M for taking the Jordan to a 6th place finish every other weekend. And being a celebrity everywhere (except N. America.)!
</STRONG>

That is fine if that is what a driver wants, but it does nothing to help the overall health of American open wheel racing. Juan Montoya accomplished what he wanted by coming to the US - he clearly benefitted. But, except for the few loyal fans who were watching during his short stint here, his brilliance did nothing to expand the appeal of open wheel racing in America.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Professor Joe:
<STRONG>

That is fine if that is what a driver wants, but it does nothing to help the overall health of American open wheel racing. Juan Montoya accomplished what he wanted by coming to the US - he clearly benefitted. But, except for the few loyal fans who were watching during his short stint here, his brilliance did nothing to expand the appeal of open wheel racing in America.

</STRONG>

Well, yeah I agree, but how to do you change that? I doubt there has ever been a driver that doesn't look out for his intrests first. Like a lot of sports, you have to make hay while the sun shines. Make the IRL more attractive than NASCAR and the Stewers will stay and the USAC guys will maybe form teams here instead of in a USAC series.

[Professor Joe]

Originally posted by Invader Zim:
<STRONG>

Well, yeah I agree, but how to do you change that?</STRONG>

You have to make American open wheel racing a preferred destination series. You do that by having it offer something unique and special.

The only thing that American open wheel racing has that is unique and special is the Indianapolis 500.

As you said above, every kid who grew up dreaming about road racing dreams about F1.

Which kids see Indy as the culmination of their careers? Build your Indy car series around them. They will get to that series and stay - building longer-term familiarity and star power.

[Peter Olivola]

The mechanically based behavior differences between roadsters and rear engined cars during the transition era was far less than the difference between sprints/midgets/sc and rear engined cars today.

Aerodynamics and the application of ground effects is another difference between then and now. Early rear engined cars had aerodynamics much more similar to roadsters than sprints/midgets/sc and todays rear engined cars.

Too, those drivers transitioned when the equipment was transitioning and all were learning something new. Those europeans who jumped in, like Clark and Graham Hill had an advantage that seems to be reflected in the difference between today's front engined oval and rear engined formula car drivers.

It's really interesting to see you throw the narrow minded label on this. It's equally valid to paint the USAC owners who forced the banning of rear engined sprints/midgets with the same brush. Further, there is nothing but your personal belief to support your position. Blaming the owners for taking the most effective route to accomplish their goals is rather silly. It's their team and they've paid to price to make the decisions. That you disagree with them and march out decades old comparisons doesn't prove your point. Those who agree with you are also doing so on faith only. That and a deep seated resentment over the introduction of rear engined cars that you had trouble understanding at the time. The way you harp on the issue indicates you still don't understand rear engined cars. Here's a hint, it has nothing to do with road racing.

Originally posted by Mackie:
<STRONG>Peter O, you are dead wrong, Andretti, Foyt, Rutherford and Bobby Unser came from the roadster era, all the rest came later, and all of them won Indy Car road races. Rutherford excelled in McLaren's but is most famous for his rides in Jim Hall's yellow submarine. Jim Hall may have been the ultimate road racer and designer, he had no problem with Johnny's roots. Hey, you could call Rutherford a "Gomer" too. He drove Smokey's '63 Chevy at Daytona the same year he was a rookie at Indy. Al Unser's rookie year was 1965, and he drove a Lola Ford, out of Sprints and Pikes peak, he had no trouble going to rear engine cars, even in his rookie year, at speed, on a track that was 2.5 miles. And forgive me all of you, I have failed to mention Parnelli, who turned out to be a darn good road racer, maybe even better then that. He started on the dirt tracks of California, in Midgets and Sprints. At Indy he called his first rear engine car a funny car, and coined a new phrase. You guys can try and justify your narrow minded thinking all you want, but in the end you are like the owners that won't give these guys a chance, and you're wrong! You are right about one thing though, all but Mears came along before the owners closed their minds and found it easier to hire foreign drivers, with road racing roots.</STRONG>

[Satman]

Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
<STRONG>Until he does it, That's just your unsubstantiated opinion.

</STRONG>

I have seen Jimmy in good equipment racing Sprints over the summer on dirt. In my opinion this was at one of the fastest short dirt tracks I have ever seen. I was surprised to see Jimmy out driving guys that raced there every week. Jimmy has always made a second class ride work and be competitive. My point is two years ago at Bump Day and practice for the 500 the guy can do allot with very little.

Day 1

1
3T
Al Unser Jr.
Galles ECR Racing Tickets.com Starz Encore Superpak
217.223

2
7
Stephan Gregoire
Mexmil/Tokheim/Viking Air Tools/Dick Simon Racing
217.035

3
91
Buddy Lazier
Delta Faucet/Coors Light/Tae-Bo/Hemelgarn Racing
216.810

4
51
Eddie Cheever Jr.
#51 [email protected] Indy Race Car
216.773

5
17
Scott Harrington
Nienhouse Motorsports Racing Special
216.471

6
18T
Sam Hornish Jr.
Hornish Bros. Trucking/Advantage Powder Coating
216.076

7
20T
Tyce Carlson
Hubbard Photographics/Immke Auto Group/Dallara
215.538

8
16
Davey Hamilton
TeamXtreme/Lycos/G Force
214.833

9
8T
Scott Sharp
Delphi Automotive Systems/MCI WorldCom
214.633

10
27
Jimmy Kite
Founders Bank Group/ZMAX/Blueprint Racing Special

Day 2

1
51
Eddie Cheever Jr.
#51 [email protected] Indy Race Car
220.881

2
3T
Al Unser Jr.
Galles ECR Racing Tickets.com Starz Encore Superpak
220.686

3
5
Robby McGehee
Meijer/Energizer Advanced Formula/Mall.com
219.780

4
8T
Scott Sharp
Delphi Automotive Systems/MCI WorldCom
219.769

5
91
Buddy Lazier
Delta Faucet/Coors Light/Tae-Bo/Hemelgarn Racing
219.453

6
17
Scott Harrington
Nienhouse Motorsports Racing Special
218.967

7
27
Jimmy Kite
Founders Bank Group/ZMAX/Blueprint Racing Special
218.441

8
7
Stephan Gregoire
Mexmil/Tokheim/Viking Air Tools/Dick Simon Racing
218.399

9
16
Davey Hamilton
TeamXtreme/Lycos/G Force
218.362

10
1T
Greg Ray
Team Conseco/Quaker State/Moen/Menards
218.298



Day 3

1 32 Robby Gordon D/O/F 40.337 223.120 34 34
2 3 Al Unser Jr. G/O/F 40.566 221.861 73 74
3 32 Greg Ray D/O/F 40.589 221.735 18 50
4 51 Eddie Cheever Jr. D/I/F 40.631 221.506 48 51
5 17 Scott Harrington D/O/F 40.651 221.397 44 48
6 91 Buddy Lazier D/O/F 40.678 221.250 45 52
7 27 Jimmy Kite G/O/F 40.684 221.217 64 73

Day 6

1
10T
Jimmy Vasser
Target
221.681

2
9T
Juan Montoya
Target
221.555

3
5
Robby McGehee
Meijer/Energizer Advanced Formula/Mall.com
220.964

4
28T
Mark Dismore
OnStar/GM BuyPower/Bryant Heating & Cooling
220.896

5
8T
Scott Sharp
Delphi Automotive Systems/MCI WorldCom
219.922

6
27
Jimmy Kite
Founders Bank Group/ZMAX/Blueprint Racing Special


Carb Day

1 9 Juan Montoya (R) G/O/F 41.2358 218.257 13 14
2 51 Eddie Cheever Jr. D/I/F 41.3016 217.909 11 18
3 91 Buddy Lazier D/O/F 41.3360 217.728 12 25
4 55 Raul Boesel G/O/F 41.4168 217.303 34 35
5 10 Jimmy Vasser G/O/F 41.5044 216.845 7 22
6 32 Robby Gordon D/O/F 41.5761 216.471 19 21
7 5 Robby McGehee G/O/F 41.6442 216.117 8 12
8 4 Scott Goodyear D/O/F 41.7448 215.596 8 25
9 1 Greg Ray D/O/F 41.7518 215.560 17 26
10 28 Mark Dismore D/O/F 41.7735 215.448 6 26
11 7 Stephan Gregoire G/O/F 41.8022 215.300 11 21
12 41 Billy Boat G/O/F 41.8495 215.056 15 16
13 27 Jimmy Kite G/O/F 41.9165 214.713 10 29


Remember they purchased Vasser's car. Also with his bump day speed he would have been on the outside of row 4 after all was said and done with qualifying. Robby McGehee would have been moved over to the inside of row 5.

Don't knock him until he doesn't perform in a top flight ride.

[Peter Olivola]

If I think a driver isn't right for a particular job isn't a knock on the driver, just a statement of circumstance.

Originally posted by Satman:
<STRONG>Don't knock him until he doesn't perform in a top flight ride.</STRONG>

[Peter Olivola]

How, PJ? How do you cull out a driver who gets to Indy on his way elsewhere?

Originally posted by Professor Joe:
<STRONG>You have to make American open wheel racing a preferred destination series. You do that by having it offer something unique and special.

The only thing that American open wheel racing has that is unique and special is the Indianapolis 500.

As you said above, every kid who grew up dreaming about road racing dreams about F1.

Which kids see Indy as the culmination of their careers? Build your Indy car series around them. They will get to that series and stay - building longer-term familiarity and star power.

</STRONG>

[MicroRacer]

Satman,

As a big Cheever fan I was disappointed that Jimmy did not even get a test with Cheever. I have seen Jimmy running faster than Cheever in lesser equipment many times.

Jimmy just does not have enough money to get a top ride.

[Professor Joe]

Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
<STRONG>How, PJ? How do you cull out a driver who gets to Indy on his way elsewhere?

</STRONG>

You don't. You just need to make sure that you have enough drivers in the series to form a foundation of stars of the Indy car series.

No one ever thought that Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart were going to make a career of Indy car racing. What made their participation special was that they came to Indy to race against the established Indy car stars and in a special event - the Indianapolis 500.

There has to be enough drivers to provide a foundation of stars for the series. It would be competition with those stars for the special jewel which is the Indy 500 championship that would draw others to Indy and Indy car racing.

Otherwise, what you get is a series which is little more than a glorified F3000 series - sort of an independent tripleA of auto racing with everyone either pointed to F1 or with careers that stagnated short of F1.

I will say it again. America is big enough with enough economic power to support a series as a pinnacle series for those parts of open wheel racing that are uniquely American. Right now, the only series celebrating that which is uniquely American is NASCAR - and look how they are doing.