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  • Originally posted by flatlander_48 View Post

    Yes, but the inherent flaw in this is that Red Bull has a profit motive in mind. They are not doing this to support a cause. They are doing this to support themselves. Also, note how many bodies they have left along the way. They really are not geared for long term support. Also, they have no skin in the game except for Red Bull Racing and Alpha Tauri. They maintain no infrastructure in any other series. Further, it is still a numbers game. Red Bull supports 8 people (when they find a replacement for O’Ward). Opportunities for 20 still improves your chances over 8.

    Just guessing, I would assume that women make up a fair part of the Red Bull patronage, yet in all the years of the Junior Team (since 2001) and the US spinoff Driver Search (2002-05) there have been No Women. To date this covers 82 drivers plus 8 or 10 for the Driver Search. Given that MANY seem to last only a year or 2 in the Red Bull system, you might think that there should have been a few women.

    Curious thing I noticed about Red Bull. Right now, the 7 that they support are all in F3 or F4, with the exception of Auer in Super Formula. There seems to be a pattern that they rarely post drivers to F2 and its predecessors GP2 and F3000. That seems a bit odd...
    I'm sorry, but you are really off base with your conclusions and I just don't care to point/counterpoint you on this. Red Bull Junior Team is a marketing expense for Red Bull, and like every one of their partnerships and sponsorships, the ultimate goal is to sell more cans of energy drink. While I'm not a fan of how cutthroat their driver development program can be, it has graduated 14 drivers into Formula One, and produced a 4-time World Champion.

    What percentage of Red Bull customers are women is a bit of a red herring, don't you think? If Red Bull had a profit motive in mind, as you claim, wouldn't they be picking drivers for their Junior Team based on demographics rather than on potential?
    “America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed.” - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Comment


    • Originally posted by flatlander_48 View Post

      It felt like there was a hint of dismissal in what you said.



      As I remember, the Road To Indy pays something like $200K, compared to $500K for the W Series. Further, I don’t think the RTI does all of the behind the scenes coaching and mentoring.



      I would posit that folks in Formula 1 are not necessarily good judges of talent. Either that or that oft repeated phrase about wanting an American in the series is just smoke. Over the years they passed on Rick Mears, Paul Tracy (North American), Josef Newgarden, Alexander Rossi and Colton Herta; aces all. That does not speak well for the talent scouts/team principals...
      More likely they're just not good enough for F1. Tracy tested but wasn't fast enough, Rossi drove in F1 but wasn't fast enough, Herta and Newgarden were in the F1 ladder series but didn't exactly set the world on fire.

      No offense, but I suspect F1 teams employ better judges of driving ability than you.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by neti1 View Post

        More likely they're just not good enough for F1. Tracy tested but wasn't fast enough, Rossi drove in F1 but wasn't fast enough, Herta and Newgarden were in the F1 ladder series but didn't exactly set the world on fire.

        No offense, but I suspect F1 teams employ better judges of driving ability than you.
        Mears was clearly fast enough, but Bernie wanted him to bring money. Hard to tell what Rossi could, or could not, do in a dog car. Talent blooms at different times. It is relatively easy to evaluate current performance, but what a scout is also supposed to do is to predict the likelihood of future growth and development. Obviously they guessed wrong with Newgarden, Rossi and Herta. Then again, folks also guessed wrong on Mika Salo, Heikki Kovalainen, Jolyon Palmer and others.

        Certainly I am no expert, but then again I’ve been watching F1 races since the early 60’s...

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        • Originally posted by neti1 View Post
          More likely they're just not good enough for F1. Tracy tested but wasn't fast enough...
          That is incorrect.

          Originally posted by flatlander_48 View Post
          Mears was clearly fast enough, but Bernie wanted him to bring money.
          Likewise.
          "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by neti1 View Post

            More likely they're just not good enough for F1. Tracy tested but wasn't fast enough, Rossi drove in F1 but wasn't fast enough, Herta and Newgarden were in the F1 ladder series but didn't exactly set the world on fire.

            No offense, but I suspect F1 teams employ better judges of driving ability than you.


            Here's an alternative truth for the internet. Tracy had a contract shoved in his face when he stepped out of the car he was testing and decided against it. Indycar having a much higher profile back then and the fact that he was driving for a guy named Penske might have had something to do with it. Rossi couldn't bring enough money to a back marker team.

            If you believe that only the greatest drivers can be found in F1 then you must have enjoyed how Ericsson kicked Hinchcliffe's arse all season long.
            "I don't have eyes in the back of my head!!!" -- Helio Castro-Neves

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            • There is some sort of irony at work here that this conversation about opportunities for female drivers has been turned into another conversation about male drivers who had their opportunities...
              “America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed.” - Eleanor Roosevelt

              Comment


              • Originally posted by flatlander_48 View Post

                Mears was clearly fast enough, but Bernie wanted him to bring money. Hard to tell what Rossi could, or could not, do in a dog car. Talent blooms at different times. It is relatively easy to evaluate current performance, but what a scout is also supposed to do is to predict the likelihood of future growth and development. Obviously they guessed wrong with Newgarden, Rossi and Herta.
                There's no "obviously" about it. None of those guys have proved they're good enough for F1, all they've proved is that they can win in a lower-level series, against a bunch of other drivers who couldn't make it in (or into) F1. Plenty of drivers have dominated such lower-level series, but then tanked in F1.

                Certainly I am no expert, but then again I’ve been watching F1 races since the early 60’s...
                So have I. And so have many of the people who make the driver decisions in F1. But unlike you and I, they are experts.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by neti1 View Post
                  There's no "obviously" about it. None of those guys have proved they're good enough for F1, all they've proved is that they can win in a lower-level series, against a bunch of other drivers who couldn't make it in (or into) F1. Plenty of drivers have dominated such lower-level series, but then tanked in F1.
                  I don't know if "good enough" is the appropriate description, because getting - and keeping - a seat in Formula One involves more than just being "good enough". People act like Formula One is this magic racing only for the best of the best. With the bulk of teams being based around Silverstone, and only five drivers being non-Europeans (and two of those are funding their respective teams), it barely even qualifies as an international series. It is a European racing series that tours the world.
                  “America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed.” - Eleanor Roosevelt

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Spike View Post
                    Likewise.
                    http://atlasf1.autosport.com/97/winter2/glikin.html

                    The usual F1 commentators and pundits feel no regret at the squandering of American talent. Its time to put that right. Just who are the members of this "Lost Generation?" I'll go back all the way to Rick Mears, who tested a Brabham BT49-Ford just prior to the 1980 Long Beach Grand Prix and Nelson Piquet's first F1 victory. Rick declined Bernie Ecclestone's offer of a ride when he figured out he was to be a rent-a-driver. Piquet's teammate at the time? Argentinean Ricardo Zunino. Zunino's replacement at Brabham? Mexican Hector Rebaque. Did Bernie really rate Mears, Zunino and Rebaque as equals? In hindsight, that's the way it looks.

                    Comment


                    • This should be interesting:

                      https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id...-female-driver

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sweaty Teddy View Post

                        I don't know if "good enough" is the appropriate description, because getting - and keeping - a seat in Formula One involves more than just being "good enough". People act like Formula One is this magic racing only for the best of the best. With the bulk of teams being based around Silverstone, and only five drivers being non-Europeans (and two of those are funding their respective teams), it barely even qualifies as an international series. It is a European racing series that tours the world.
                        1. "With the bulk of teams being based around Silverstone". F1 teams are based in four different countries. IndyCar teams are based in one ("the bulk of them around" IMS).
                        2. Europe is not a country, it's a continent, containing 44 different countries.That pretty international, even if you don't count the drivers from outside Europe.
                        3. One third of F1's 2020 field comes from outside Europe (six drivers, not five).
                        4. F1 has drivers from 14 countries; IndyCar has.drivers from only 9. So you can't use "insufficient internationality" of drivers to somehow invalidate F1, without invalidating IndyCar even more.
                        5. How would hiring 3 guys from the USA instead of (for example) a Thai, a Mexican and a Russian make F1 more diverse?
                        6. And anyway, what on earth does any of the above have to do with whether or not F1 teams made a mistake by concluding that other drivers were faster than Rossi, Newgarden or Herta (who's had exactly one season in IndyCar)?
                        7. "People act like Formula One is this magic racing only for the best of the best".
                        That's because they are ... or at least the level of the top half of the field is higher than that of any other racing series (based on logic and historical evidence).
                        Last edited by neti1; 12-17-2019, 10:18 AM.

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                        • Nobody wanted Rossi, and Newgarden and Herta were not overlooked because they were nowhere on the radar.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by neti1 View Post
                            1. "With the bulk of teams being based around Silverstone". F1 teams are based in four different countries. IndyCar teams are based in one ("the bulk of them around" IMS).
                            2. Europe is not a country, it's a continent, containing 44 different countries.That pretty international, even if you don't count the drivers from outside Europe.
                            3. One third of F1's 2020 field comes from outside Europe (six drivers, not five).
                            4. F1 has drivers from 14 countries; IndyCar has.drivers from only 9. So you can't use "insufficient internationality" of drivers to somehow invalidate F1, without invalidating IndyCar even more.
                            5. How would hiring 3 guys from the USA instead of (for example) a Thai, a Mexican and a Russian make F1 more diverse?
                            6. And anyway, what on earth does any of the above have to do with whether or not F1 teams made a mistake by concluding that other drivers were faster than Rossi, Newgarden or Herta (who's had exactly one season in IndyCar)?
                            7. "People act like Formula One is this magic racing only for the best of the best".
                            That's because they are ... or at least the level of the top half of the field is higher than that of any other racing series (based on logic and historical evidence).
                            - Eight of the ten 2020 Formula One teams are based within a two-hour drive of the Silverstone Circuit in central England. Ferrari is in Italy and Alfa Romeo is in Switzerland. By anyone's definition, 8 out of 10 - or 80% - is "the bulk".

                            - Who said Europe is a country? What Europe is is the place you need to be if you want to be considered for a seat in Formula One, and specifically a handful of the 44 countries that make up Europe. By my count, the non-European drivers are Albon, Latifi, Perez, Ricciardo, and Stroll. Of those five non-European drivers, two are funded by family money (including one whose father bought the team) and one is personally funded by one of the richest men in the world. The remaining two were part of the Red Bull Junior Team, which is what I'm saying should be the model for a developmental program for women racers. Looking at it another way, our Formula One "rags to riches story", Lewis Hamilton, isn't a 6-time World Champion if he isn't British, and wasn't able to walk up to Ron Dennis at age 10 and announce he was going to drive for McLaren.

                            - I don't think anyone has ever claimed that IndyCar is - or is trying to be - an international series.

                            Originally posted by RS2 View Post
                            Nobody wanted Rossi, and Newgarden and Herta were not overlooked because they were nowhere on the radar.
                            Rossi had barely enough funding to put together a few starts for arguably the worst team on the grid at the time. Neither Newgarden nor Herta ever had the backing to get on anyone's radar.

                            ---

                            And I'm still not sure what any of this has to to with opportunities for women in motorsport, apart from avoiding the topic.
                            “America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed.” - Eleanor Roosevelt

                            Comment


                            • What's the topic. I have not read the thread.

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                              • Originally posted by neti1 View Post
                                1. "With the bulk of teams being based around Silverstone". F1 teams are based in four different countries. IndyCar teams are based in one ("the bulk of them around" IMS).
                                2. Europe is not a country, it's a continent, containing 44 different countries.That pretty international, even if you don't count the drivers from outside Europe.
                                3. One third of F1's 2020 field comes from outside Europe (six drivers, not five).
                                4. F1 has drivers from 14 countries; IndyCar has.drivers from only 9. So you can't use "insufficient internationality" of drivers to somehow invalidate F1, without invalidating IndyCar even more.
                                5. How would hiring 3 guys from the USA instead of (for example) a Thai, a Mexican and a Russian make F1 more diverse?
                                6. And anyway, what on earth does any of the above have to do with whether or not F1 teams made a mistake by concluding that other drivers were faster than Rossi, Newgarden or Herta (who's had exactly one season in IndyCar)?
                                7. "People act like Formula One is this magic racing only for the best of the best".
                                That's because they are ... or at least the level of the top half of the field is higher than that of any other racing series (based on logic and historical evidence).
                                Also:

                                You could just about fund 2 IndyCar fields for the yearly budgets of Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari...

                                Comment

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