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  • It’s time to have an honest discussion re UAK 18

    Preamble :

    This thread is intended to provide a safe space for those concerned about the quality of racing this package has produced. If you like the current chassis , please skip to the next thread.

    First , let’s state the obvious , the aesthetics of the UAK18 are a big step up from the aerokits and represent the best looking INDYCAR since the DP-01. Unfortunately it doesn’t race as good as it looks.

    While the DW 12 and aerokits were not good looking cars they probably produced the best racing in series history.

    Races like Baltimore , Barber , Even Long Beach that were supposed to snoozefests were action packed , edge of your seat enjoyment. Remember Brazil 2013? I thought so , me too ... arguably the best road or street course race in the modern era was a product of the DW 12. I miss when you could count on a R/S race being as exciting as an oval .

    Can Anyone tell me the last time we had a thrilling final lap duel for the win... or even a sustained dual for the lead in the previous 2 years ? The aerokits put on a hell of a show at Barber 2016 , this current package has fallen short in this regard (and don’t bore me with the marketing stats INDYCAR provides about overall passes through the field ) , it’s clear the racing ain’t as good and I think there is a direct correlation in the drop off in TV ratings over the previous 2 seasons .... if you recall INDYCAR on NBCSN was getting .05-.07s consistently in 2015-2016.


    Also let’s talk performance ... I’m not a big stats guy but I feel like this car is also considerably slower. If you recall , the Chevy aerokit in testing was close to the performance of F1 at COTA... now we are 13 seconds off the pace of F1


    Mark and Jay , fix the damn product before you lose this lifelong fan (and probably thousands of others)



    /rant




  • #2
    With 4 races in the books (unfortunately no ovals, though), is anyone willing to make any predictions of what the 2019 Indy 500 might look like?

    I know that the lackluster action in '18 was blamed on the hot weather and the teams not yet having a good handle on the new cars.

    So if we get a more typical, cooler race day, and the teams have a year under their belt of figuring out the car, can we expect better Indy 500 action?

    Also, didn't they make some sort of small aero change somewhere on the car soon after last year's 500 in hope of making them more stable in traffic on ovals? I think it was the front wing.

    Or is your guess as good as mine?
    "Charging a man with murder here was like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500."- Capt. Willard, Apocolypse Now
    "Ain't nuthin' like [being with a woman], 'cept maybe the Indy 500."- Bunny, Platoon
    "To alcohol! The cause of- and solution to- all of life's problems."- Homer J. Simpson

    Comment


    • doitagain
      doitagain commented
      Editing a comment
      This thread seems to be much like the other thread. Maybe more rational and informed

    • doitagain
      doitagain commented
      Editing a comment
      Originally posted by Jackstraw View Post
      Do you think INDYCAR will be a viable product if the 500 is reduced to 80k or even 150k race day spectators ?
      No.

    • Bryan_Weber
      Bryan_Weber commented
      Editing a comment
      Originally posted by BSJracing View Post
      Call me a purist but the 2018 500 was one of the first I've enjoyed for quite awhile. None of the artificial crap created by the aerokits with no reward for leading. The action is not lackluster, it's genuine instead of fake. And watching this package on a road course is a sheer joy, those drivers are thrashed
      But last year wasn't what you claim. The leader did better than in years past, where he couldn't get away with an obvious faster car. The problem is that it swung too far the other way. A faster car couldn't pass at all. 2017 had issues, and to correct them, they did the opposite thing in 2018 and made the event even worse. Both make for crap racing.

      The aero package last year was complete and utter engineering garbage, and here is how we know that. EVERYONE started with their total downforce at the limit. EVERYONE had the rear wing at the stop, and at the stop, it wasn't enough. It wasn't like days of old, where teams would trim out at the end and sacrifice downforce for speed, in an attempt to win the thing. Everyone had all there was, all day long, and it simply was not enough. Why even make the rear wing adjust? Just bolt it on in max and balance with the front. Yuck!

      What we need is an aero package where there is enough total downforce available so that the teams will trim the car in the race. They've done a few things to make a modest increase in total downforce and we'll see how it goes. In my humble opinion, it looks like very little delta from last year and I expect the same nonsense where a slow car will hold up a freight train of faster cars due to lack of grip. A cool day with be wildly better and a hot day will be another garbage race.

  • #3
    I asked in another thread, but I'll ask here also: Has Badger found his way over to this new forum yet???

    Comment


    • #4
      I'd like to know how well the kit would race without any mandated limits on where the wings/wickers/diffuser bits can physically be set, at least at Indy. It sounds like the teams often want more of something, but are not allowed to move the adjustment screw any further, which seems dumb.
      You have the IndyCar you deserve.

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by Jackstraw View Post
        Preamble :

        This thread is intended to provide a safe space for those concerned about the quality of racing this package has produced. If you like the current chassis , please skip to the next thread.

        First , let’s state the obvious , the aesthetics of the UAK18 are a big step up from the aerokits and represent the best looking INDYCAR since the DP-01. Unfortunately it doesn’t race as good as it looks.

        While the DW 12 and aerokits were not good looking cars they probably produced the best racing in series history.

        Races like Baltimore , Barber , Even Long Beach that were supposed to snoozefests were action packed , edge of your seat enjoyment. Remember Brazil 2013? I thought so , me too ... arguably the best road or street course race in the modern era was a product of the DW 12. I miss when you could count on a R/S race being as exciting as an oval .

        Can Anyone tell me the last time we had a thrilling final lap duel for the win... or even a sustained dual for the lead in the previous 2 years ? The aerokits put on a hell of a show at Barber 2016 , this current package has fallen short in this regard (and don’t bore me with the marketing stats INDYCAR provides about overall passes through the field ) , it’s clear the racing ain’t as good and I think there is a direct correlation in the drop off in TV ratings over the previous 2 seasons .... if you recall INDYCAR on NBCSN was getting .05-.07s consistently in 2015-2016.


        Also let’s talk performance ... I’m not a big stats guy but I feel like this car is also considerably slower. If you recall , the Chevy aerokit in testing was close to the performance of F1 at COTA... now we are 13 seconds off the pace of F1


        Mark and Jay , fix the damn product before you lose this lifelong fan (and probably thousands of others)



        /rant


        All I can say is that I agree with your take 100%

        Comment


        • #6
          In your opinion the non-IndyCar ChampCar DP-01 was.

          if anything, IMO it’s the best since the mid-2000’s GForce chassis and Reynard swoop nose IndyCar’s from 1994-96 (when they raced in the 500).

          Now, carry on...don’t state an opinion as fact. You may like it, but that just makes it an opinion, not a fact. A fact is, the DP-01 was never an official IndyCar at the time it competed, never mind absorbing race results from that car post-merger.
          RIP Dan Wheldon :(

          "Anybody who says the IndyCar Series is not the best championship in the world is a complete idiot in my book." ~Dan Wheldon


          "It's a discussion board, not a society ball." ~Skypigeon

          Comment


          • #7
            Let's remember how we found ourselves in this fix.

            Even though I agree with the OP that the manufacturer aero kits did bring more excitement to the series it often times the fans that called the kits ugly and unbearable to the eye. Many fans and drivers also wanted a cut in downforce and wanted the cars to be "harder to drive" and put the driving back into the hands of the drivers and not be so aero dependent. The teams also argued that the manufacturer aero kits were expensive, too complex, and had too many parts.

            Indycar heard all of these and did their best to satisfy everyone to a degree. The kits are universal which in theory should cut down cost. The car looks better and that seemed to be the opinion of many when it first was shown and the downforce has been cut dramatically. Marcus Ericcson at COTA kept on talking about how the car slides and it takes a lot of work by the driver and team to make the car drive well.

            Now here we are again complaining. The lesson - there's no way to make all fans happy. Heck, some fans will never be happy no matter what. I personally don't believe the ratings are a reflection of the excitement we see on TV. I still think it's the fact that Indycar's product is shown on NBCSN and not regular NBC - which is a mistake on NBC's part.

            And as for the point that Indycar is 13 second slower then F1 - let's be serious and say and Indycar will more then likely will never be as quick as a F1 car. The OP's rant that at one time an Indycar would have qualified on a F1 YEARS ago may be true but that's years ago. Years ago F1 was developing their KERS/V6 turbo engines. Now they have probably 200-250 more horsepower then before. Indycar said they'll have 900 horsepower in a couple of years. Let's be patient won't we?
            "The only good horsepower is usable horsepower.."

            Comment


            • #8
              It really does not matter if Indycar is 13 seconds slower than F1.. Who really cares?

              As bad as the racing has been this year.. Its been really bad but its light years better than F1.. F1 is more an exhibition than a real race
              "Paff has been closer to the mark than anyone will give him credit for."

              Richard Kimble 11/18/2010

              "Paff is far more right than any of you will EVER give him credit for.

              As non politically correct and un IndyCar friendly as it is, it's the truth. "

              SeeuInMay 12/29/2010

              Comment


              • #9


                Originally posted by Hitokiri View Post
                Let's remember how we found ourselves in this fix.

                Even though I agree with the OP that the manufacturer aero kits did bring more excitement to the series it often times the fans that called the kits ugly and unbearable to the eye. Many fans and drivers also wanted a cut in downforce and wanted the cars to be "harder to drive" and put the driving back into the hands of the drivers and not be so aero dependent. The teams also argued that the manufacturer aero kits were expensive, too complex, and had too many parts.


                Indycar heard all of these and did their best to satisfy everyone to a degree. The kits are universal which in theory should cut down cost. The car looks better and that seemed to be the opinion of many when it first was shown and the downforce has been cut dramatically. Marcus Ericcson at COTA kept on talking about how the car slides and it takes a lot of work by the driver and team to make the car drive well.

                Now here we are again complaining. The lesson - there's no way to make all fans happy. Heck, some fans will never be happy no matter what. I personally don't believe the ratings are a reflection of the excitement we see on TV. I still think it's the fact that Indycar's product is shown on NBCSN and not regular NBC - which is a mistake on NBC's part.



                And as for the point that Indycar is 13 second slower then F1 - let's be serious and say and Indycar will more then likely will never be as quick as a F1 car. The OP's rant that at one time an Indycar would have qualified on a F1 YEARS ago may be true but that's years ago. Years ago F1 was developing their KERS/V6 turbo engines. Now they have probably 200-250 more horsepower then before. Indycar said they'll have 900 horsepower in a couple of years. Let's be patient won't we?
                1. I don’t think fans wanted the increased difficulty of the cars to affect the fantastic racing . One thing the series and the paid talking heads talked about was that the UAK would produce much better racing ... which has turned out to be a complete fabrication

                2. The ratings have been down or flat since peaking in the 2015-2016 seasons. Trucks and Xfinity are getting bigger numbers. NBCSN is more commonly distributed than ESPN2. Time to stop blaming the network and start blaming the product


                3. The F1/Indy lap time comparison was from fall 2014... not the champ car glory days

                Comment


                • #10
                  the good drivers and teams are able to dominate. Nothing wrong with that. Not every race needs to be a photo finish or have 75 trillion passes.

                  \Would like the teams to be able to modify their aero though

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Jackstraw / Bowmeier / Paff:

                    Do you want more downforce, or less?

                    Where?

                    More HP, or less?

                    Better tires, or worse?

                    If speed doesn't matter, how slow is too slow?

                    Does that benefit better drivers, or worse?

                    Thanks in.advance for your thoughtful and well-supported responses.
                    There's really no such thing as Gary the Moose, Sybil.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Chris Paff View Post
                      It really does not matter if Indycar is 13 seconds slower than F1.. Who really cares?

                      As bad as the racing has been this year.. Its been really bad but its light years better than F1.. F1 is more an exhibition than a real race
                      Because some cars are so much faster? Some drivers have more skill? How should they change it, in your opinion?
                      There's really no such thing as Gary the Moose, Sybil.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by doitagain View Post
                        Jackstraw / Bowmeier / Paff:

                        Do you want more downforce, or less?

                        Where?

                        More HP, or less?

                        Better tires, or worse?

                        If speed doesn't matter, how slow is too slow?

                        Does that benefit better drivers, or worse?

                        Thanks in.advance for your thoughtful and well-supported responses.
                        I want to go back to the racing of 2012-2017 with more aesthetically pleasing cars.

                        that was an amazing era to watch the sport and almost every race was lit .


                        if the fans can’t admit the current product is broken then they ain’t watching close enough or they don’t care IMO

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Chris Paff View Post
                          It really does not matter if Indycar is 13 seconds slower than F1.. Who really cares?

                          As bad as the racing has been this year.. Its been really bad but its light years better than F1.. F1 is more an exhibition than a real race
                          Every INDYCAR race this year has felt like an exhibition / practice sesh tbh

                          there has not been one pass for the win ... every race has been won through pit strategy / in/ out laps

                          Tbh I can’t remember the last race where there was an actual battle/ pass for the win between positions 1&2

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by Jackstraw View Post
                            1. I don’t think fans wanted the increased difficulty of the cars to affect the fantastic racing . One thing the series and the paid talking heads talked about was that the UAK would produce much better racing ... which has turned out to be a complete fabrication
                            Maybe you and I have different memories then. I don't know how many times I've seen the phrase "less downforce" written during the DW12 era. Some said the downforce didn't challenge the drivers on the ovals and made them too stuck to the ground. Some said the high downforce levels on road and street courses didn't make the car "slide" like they use to and that made car too difficult to pass.

                            2. The ratings have been down or flat since peaking in the 2015-2016 seasons. Trucks and Xfinity are getting bigger numbers. NBCSN is more commonly distributed than ESPN2. Time to stop blaming the network and start blaming the product
                            But you're missing one big fact. NBC has all the races this year and more races will be seen on network channels then in years. As I said, NBCSN has always been bad but I don't think we'll truly know the outcome of this new deal with NBC until the season is over. As I said, NBC made the wrong choice not having the beginning race and Long Beach on network TV but maybe that's a lesson learned that will change next year.

                            3. The F1/Indy lap time comparison was from fall 2014... not the champ car glory days
                            I know. COTA wasn't even formed during the Champ Car days. It just shows how much things change in F1 from season to season and how little things change in Indycar - not really due to the lack of innovation but lack of money and resources.
                            "The only good horsepower is usable horsepower.."

                            Comment

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