Don't remember who

[hdolan]

But somebody along the path to where we are today said something to the effect that there might be some dissatisfaction on both sides when the open wheel situation was all said and done.

Reading other forums, pro-CART, and this one leads me to believe that person was indeed blessed with the ability to see the future.

Before one says it's only me looking curiously at the IRL, I suggest that others have expressed similar opinions. No need to name names as their posts reflect their attitudes...

Somebody also said that I'm getting more like sif...one can only look at what's going on and draw conclusions based on observations. Back to the future, 1995, looks more and more like reality.

I see TG running open wheel with a lot of input from Penske, Ganassi and others currently in CART. . However, I could be wrong. I hope so...


There will be one series and it will race at Indianapolis...

[SteveH]

Howard, it looks like you will be correct. Several years ago on SpeedNet someone offered that the hardocre supporters of both CART and the IRL would not be pleased with a merger, either formal or as in the present case by default due to CART's implosion. The hardcore CART fans (of which I am one) aren't pleased. However, there probably is no choice for CART today but to follow the IRL. And by the reaction to many of your questions and observations on TF I have to conclude there is not universal approval for the way things are in the IRL. Or maybe it's just not approval of you. )

Tony George may indeed be in control over all open wheel racing in the US, but it will look and act a lot like it did before 1995. Just a little less expensive.

Sooner or later, most will come to realize that.

[mattndallas]

I've got no problem with the direction things are heading. I admit CART teams are (on average) better. I want those well sponsored teams in the IRL, racing on ovals (mostly), in a cost contained environment where the formula allows all to compete based on effort and team management, as well as skill. Reduce "win buying".

I guess I'm one of the few that thinks that former CART owners in the IRL will not necessarily continue the former CART reliance on "road racing foreigners". As soon as the contracts expire, the best RE OVAL RACING DRIVERS will be employed - foreign or domestic. You don't see guy like Penske, Ganassi, Wells, etc sticking Brazilians in NASCAR do you? They don't have some fascination with employing foreign road racers.

Hopefully the IPS will provide solid training for USACers attempting to make the jump, making the selection of Tomas Scheckter over Kasey Kahne less of a "given".

The influx of CART teams, and their ability to prepare for a race, will mean 10-15 cars will be positioning for the win - all on the lead lap, rather than 3. And I'd bet that a good chunk of them will be American kids.

Nobody realizes how KEY the IPS is. It must succeed to bridge the experience gap. Otherwise, top USAC kids will continue flowing South, and IRL teams will have to select drivers from shifter cart kids, CART support series, F1 rejects, etc.

Give it a couple of years. If the IPS fails, I will probably agree that all that has been created (via the IRL) is a Tony-owned open wheel series that foreign, road racing trained, formula drivers settle for when they can't cut it in F1 (or CART if its still around).

[JoeBob]

There will be one series and it will race at Indianapolis...

and Road America, Mid-Ohio, Toronto, Vancouver and Long Beach.

Tony George may indeed be in control over all open wheel racing in the US, but it will look and act a lot like it did before 1995. Just a little less expensive.

And with a lot fewer fans. The "IRL die-hards" will be turned-off by the road courses (and the drivers that come with them), and the "CART die-hards" will be offended by the rev-limiters and development restrictions. The "racing fans" left long ago.

I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to that said, "I'm not a big racing fan but I used to watch the Indy 500, but then one year I heard about some sort of dispute, looked in the newspaper to see the starting lineup, and hadn't heard of any of the drivers, so I stopped watching." Those fans haven't been back since, they probably watch the Daytona 500 now.

[Dr. Austin]

I may not be following the exact intent of where you are tyring to go with this, but, hey, bear with me.

I won't be too satisfied when this whole thing shakes out because i love the way is was last year. We had 35 races. Every stinkin' one of them was gripping and gut wrenching for whatever reason, but besides when people got hurt, I loved it all.

We had the IRL for all it's nailbiting 220+mph wheel to wheel action that week after week had us on the edge of our seats. We saw lots of new, exciting faces, including the guy who is destined to spank everyone in May, Jacques Lazier. There were bad moments, too, but if you can't take it, this may not be your sport.

And CART provided us with some of the finest world class road racing we have seen in years. Yeah, they had their share of embarrassments as well, probably, no definately more than their share of embarrassments. And they brought most of them on themselves. But they are capable of much better and we have had years and years of them giving us much better.

So, i have the IRL for mega thrills and guys I can take a genuine interest in seeing succeed. And I have CART for my openwheeled RR action where they actually pass each other on the track once in awhile. Why would I really want to see either go away? Why would i want to see them both morph into one series that would definately be less interesting that what we have now?

My dream scenerio is for the two series to co-exist, but history has shown us how impossible that is. They tried it before in 1980 with the CRL, but that fell apart after only a few races.

So, like I have said countless times before, it is never, ever, ever, going to be as good as 2001. Never. No matter how it shakes out, OW fans are not going to get the kind of *all-busting thrills we got last year. Sure, it looks like 2002 is going to be great, there is only going to be one survivor and it will be less than what we have now.

That is why all the bickering has me so upset. we are absolutely in the golden age of openwheeled racing. I'de love to be able to come on the internet and talk about how great all the races are, but more people are intersted in bashing Robin Miller or throwing darts at TG. Those of you who have taken sides (and i am guilty, but i still try to enjoy the races) are going to miss it all.

It is never, ever, ever going to be this good again.

Boy, I wonder who would have said something like that!

The good thing is, the people who get it won't be bitching in 4 years on how to get more open wheels fans. They understand right now what damage has been done and how long it is going to take to even get back to 1995.

One series with 20 races, racing in Indianapolis in May, with all races on ABC will still produce low 1. share broadcast ratings and average to low attendance at a signifiacnt amount of venues.

One person will be happy for sure though.

[IndyJim]

You said it well Dr. Austin. I am one of the seemingly few who really enjoys both CART and the IRL. I would rather have both succeed and be independant.

I think with the increasing cross over to Indy and maybe Fontana, and the liklihood that CART specs in 2003 will be very similar to the IRL in both engines and chassis can be a good thing.

CART has had its share of gaffes, but it offers too much to indy car fans to benefit anyone by disappearing. I enjoy CART much more today because the IRL is around, and I am getting my oval fix!

If you cut all the BS and focus on the on track product, it has never been better.

[MicroRacer]

How can I be disappointed in where the IRL is headed? I can only go on what is happening today not what some forum members are dreaming up. Today there are only ovals in the IRL. I am very happy with that. Right now the IRL is a long way from CART in 1995. In 1995 there were more street/road courses than ovals. I was not very happy then about that then. I would mainly watch the ovals and Indy.

I believe that for the IRL to add road courses would be a big mistake. Eventually the IRL would look like CART 1995. This has not happened yet, and I believe that as long as Tony George has anything to say about it that it won't. Six years the IRL has been in existence and each year there has been talk about adding road courses. I'm sure that there have been opportunities for the IRL to run on road courses, but so far Tony George has said no.

I could cry and whine about the IRL starting to look like CART 95, but the fact of the matter is that it is a long way from it. I am not totally happy with what is happening in the IRL, but I do see improvements in the IRL.

Today Billy Boat, and Donnie Beechler both have a paying rides in the IRL, and neither would have had a chance in CART. I believe that there will always be a couple sprint/midget drivers in the IRL. All I have ever wanted from the IRL is a chance for these drivers and at least these opportunities are there. Not as many opportunities as I would like, but it is a far cry better than zero.

Howard I compared you to Sif because you are always trying to find fault with the IRL. It seems to me that you are not looking at the positives; you are only looking at the negatives. This is what a fans of other series do, which is why you sound like Sif.

Every year I have heard that the IRL will not make it to the next year by CART fans. This year we are not only looking at 2002, but 2003. There is a future for the IRL and it’s looking bright. Granted there are many traps and pitfalls for the IRL to fall into, but so far as a paying customer I am happy.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: MicroRacer ]

[Heath Hamilton]

i have no problem with cart teams coming over, to indy or full time...

i accept the fact that some irl teams will suffer or go under. i accepted the fact many years ago that some collateral damage would be incurred should a union be forged.

thats not the point. the point is that the IRL will prevail overall. irl specs and irl rules. cart teams that race under these are no longer cart teams, but rather irl teams. and im fine with that.

it was never about driver vs. driver. it was about wanting open wheel oval races.

i wanted open wheel oval races.

i chose the league that would deliver.

looks like the payoff is near.

the irl may choose to do some road races, but you know what, its their choice, rather than a rule. period.

their choice. also their choice not to.

[cornutt]

Originally posted by JoeBob:
<STRONG>

And with a lot fewer fans. The "IRL die-hards" will be turned-off by the road courses (and the drivers that come with them), and the "CART die-hards" will be offended by the rev-limiters and development restrictions. The "racing fans" left long ago.
</STRONG>

You're saying I'm not a racing fan? Then what am I?


<STRONG>
I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to that said, "I'm not a big racing fan but I used to watch the Indy 500, but then one year I heard about some sort of dispute, looked in the newspaper to see the starting lineup, and hadn't heard of any of the drivers, so I stopped watching." Those fans haven't been back since, they probably watch the Daytona 500 now.</STRONG>[/QUOTE]

News flash: By 1995, Mears, Mario, Al Sr. and A.J. had all retired. Your comment about the stating lineup would have been perfectly apropos in that year. But it was bound to happen eventually. That would be like me dissing NASCAR because Petty, Allison, and Cale aren't still driving.

[JoeBob]

Originally posted by cornutt:
<STRONG>

News flash: By 1995, Mears, Mario, Al Sr. and A.J. had all retired. Your comment about the stating lineup would have been perfectly apropos in that year. But it was bound to happen eventually. That would be like me dissing NASCAR because Petty, Allison, and Cale aren't still driving.</STRONG>

When I say "racing fans" I mean "casual fans." If you're the type to be posting on an IRL or CART message board, you're not who I'm talking about.

The quote above is not something I made up for the sake of arguement. It is something I've heard time and time again from folks that have seen the various racing memorabilia in my office at work.

I don't think you give the drivers in 1995 enough credit, and I think you overestimate the power of names. College Football and College Basketball seem to have pretty strong followings, and nobody is allowed to play for more than 4 years after that, you're gone.

Every sport has its cycle of "big names". College Sports have a complete cycle every 4-5 years. Open Wheel Racing's cycle seems to be about 10 years long, NASCAR's is around 20, the NFL is somewhere around 10-15.

The perception in 1996 was that the stars were in Michigan, and a bunch of "no names" were in Indianapolis. I'm not saying that is the way things were, but that was certainly the perception of "the masses" at the time (with a lot of help from the media).

[mnkywrch]

Originally posted by JoeBob:
<STRONG>
I don't think you give the drivers in 1995 enough credit, and I think you overestimate the power of names. College Football and College Basketball seem to have pretty strong followings, and nobody is allowed to play for more than 4 years after that, you're gone.

Every sport has its cycle of "big names". College Sports have a complete cycle every 4-5 years. Open Wheel Racing's cycle seems to be about 10 years long, NASCAR's is around 20, the NFL is somewhere around 10-15.

The perception in 1996 was that the stars were in Michigan, and a bunch of "no names" were in Indianapolis. I'm not saying that is the way things were, but that was certainly the perception of "the masses" at the time (with a lot of help from the media).</STRONG>

College sports are more about the school than the pros, which (in most cases) is about the athlete (save the Yankees and the Cubs).

Even when Michigan has an off-year, they still pack The Big House.

[BigFig]

To those who are scratching their south end for something to be critical about, so pick the "everybody" is not pleased angle, please pull your head out or come on back down to earth, or release the air lock so the vacumn that's formed between the ears can be released. You could give every single person their hearts desire and some of them would be "not pleased" and there probably is not a person on this forum that does not know this.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: BigFig ]

[hdolan]

"And by the reaction to many of your questions and observations on TF I have to conclude there is not universal approval for the way things are in the IRL. Or maybe it's just not approval of you. )"

I suspect the latter is more probable...

[Lucky161]

The casual fan may have left, but the "real racing fans" have been treated to some of the most exciting racing around. You may be hearing about people that quit watching, but you haven't heard from anyone that went to an IRL race and said they didn't see great racing. Racing is a niche sport. If you take the rosiest estimates of attendance and TV viewers, you still wind up with over 90% of the population doing something else.