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Concerns with common engine formula

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  • Concerns with common engine formula

    What will Tony do if Toyota is supplying 10 cars in CART and IRL owners are having trouble getting parts for their engines in the IRL. Thought the rule was anyone that wants the engine you have to supply them with one. I know Nissan has trouble supplying teams with engines, but they aren't in another series. How can Toyota justify supplying engines to CART and be stretched to thin to supply engines to all the IRL teams that want one? Maybe it won't happen, but I see it as a real possiblity.

  • #2
    Well, maybe Toyota will find a way to bend the rules. Whats TG going to do, kick Toyota out? I say be happy Toyota is supporting openwheel racing in the first place.
    RIP Sammich

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    • #3
      No need to invoke bad ol' CART gobbling up Toyota engines next year. There's an engine supply problem right now for teams using the Chevy. It looks like some teams may have to go with last year's Aurora engines for Homestead.

      Note that I did use the word "may"; if anyone has better info than me, feel free to correct me. I'm about as far from being an "insider" as one can get!
      "I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

      RIP, Dan. You will always be one of my heroes.

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      • #4
        They have a year to forecast supply. It should not be a problem. That is also tough thing to monitor.

        If Tony were so concerned he would have had the engine companies signing an agreement to only supply the IRL.

        I find this quite interesting going forward. I think there will be enough parts out there if you want to take care of things in house. Chances are though with teams like Kelly and Ganassi running a Toyota they will not build them in house but sign leases with the best builder. This could still result in problems with the little IRL guy needed a small supply of stuff. It will be available but who builds it is another thing to consider.

        Keep watching the TWR/Infiniti situation as the season unfolds.

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        • #5
          I know that there are some supply problems now. But the problem isn't the result of the engine manufactors supplying the same motor to another series. I find it going against every IRL principle if PDM can't get a Toyota motor next year, but there are 10 teams using the same Toyota motor in CART next year.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hotdog1:
            <STRONG>I know that there are some supply problems now. But the problem isn't the result of the engine manufactors supplying the same motor to another series. I find it going against every IRL principle if PDM can't get a Toyota motor next year, but there are 10 teams using the same Toyota motor in CART next year.</STRONG>
            I believe that there is currently a rule that the manufacturers have X days to supply an engine from the time the check clears.

            I think this came up with Nissan last year. My conversations with their PR people yielded that even though TWR had 90 days to get an engine to someone, they could ship in a week. Again, the clock doesn't start until the money is there.

            So, using the rules as I understand them. Toyota has 90 days from when PDM's check clears to get them a motor. If Toyota can't meet THAT deadline, then they've got bigger problems than just supply.
            We flipped our finger to the King of England
            Stole our country from the Indians
            With god on our side and guns in our hands
            We took it for our own!

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            • #7
              The biggest concern for the IRL should be the parts of the formula that aren't common. Mainly, traction control. The manufacturers will now be actively developing a traction control system that will be perfectly legal in CART.

              The IRL will have to figure out a way to make sure none of their teams are using this software. F1 ended up legalizing traction control because it was easier than trying to keep it out. I have the feeling CART legalized it for much the same reason.

              We've already seen teams use custom engine software to their advantage (mainly Kelley's "soft-limiter") and the common availability of traction control software for CART is going to make it a lot easier. How does the IRL keep teams from using modified (or hidden) versions of the CART-legal system in the IRL?

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              • #8
                Am certainly no expert, but would traction control really mean much in oval racing? Maybe on restarts or on cold tires I guess.
                All rides are bought. But occasionally the currency is talent.

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                • #9
                  Don't forget that in 2003 the engine supply rule goes to 25% guaranteed support. No engine manufacturer has to supply more than that. That means about 6-8 teams in 2003 (being the optimist that I am). Toyota can certainly supply 6-8 IRL teams and the 10 CART teams that they are willing to supply.

                  I don't think it will be a problem. It will be pretty ironic if a ToyotaCART team comes to Indy and wins with a Toyota over a team that has to take a Nissan cause that was all that was available.

                  Will someone explain exactly what advantage traction control would offer in a race where the care is flat out all the time and their is neither acceleration nor braking? Will it give a trmendous advantage in the pits?
                  Sifaka

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                  • #10
                    That's our Sif, cart doesn't have any engine suppliers who have made a supply agreement with them but IRL teams will suffer. That's a good one.

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                    • #11
                      That's how you can tell that sifaka is a CART fan.He can spin as fast as he wants because he has no revlimiter!
                      Proud to be a complainer.

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                      • #12
                        Would that Sif had some traction control written into his software!

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                        • #13
                          I expect that like F1, it is easier to allow traction control then police it. I am not bothered by CART's desire for more rpm's, it is just another way to shoot themselves in the foot, there are many ways for en engine to fail, increasing the rpm is one of them. I expect any manufacturer that builds for both series will build the valve train for the higher number, that will make the IRL version that much stronger! At the Chevy roll-out at Fontana Chevy reps said that they expected requests for 100 engine kits and got 250. Those folks were in dreamland, 100 engines my patoot, twenty cars using Chevys would need more then five each. Any team going to Indy should have at least three per car, don't forget the "T" cars!

                          I expect that the engine situation will be manageable next year, with proper planning an allocation!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hotdog1:
                            <STRONG>What will Tony do if Toyota is supplying 10 cars in CART and IRL owners are having trouble getting parts for their engines in the IRL.\</STRONG>
                            Because Toyota is in the IRL FIRST, and CART kinda by accident.

                            Rumor has it that the is a banner proclaiming "Toyota - 2003 Indy 500 Champs" hanging at TRD.
                            "The problem with internet quotes and statistics is that often times, they're wrongfully believed to be real." - Abraham Lincoln

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