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  • Engine questions

    With all the grief we used to take from IRL bashers that the IRL only had one engine for all practical purposes, we now have two with at least one more on the way. Things are looking up, right? Well, not to me.

    It is my understanding that the intent of the IRL engine rules were to cut down on exclusivity and lack of universal availability, while holding down the costs. And if I understood the statements made, also to give the engines back to the mechanics rather than the manufacturers. All good intentions, but are they being met and what does the future hold.

    My take is that they are not being fully met, although the level of parity has been pretty good for the last couple of years. But the costs have escalated far beyond the league mandated $75-80K. To me doubling the costs does not stay within the intent of the rules. I think this has become a mandated cost of $125K rather than $75K.

    And the two engine makers have far different situations. GM from what I have read is actually making money supplying the "kits" to outside builders who are doing the final development. And the incremental costs of that development is quite expensive. If the first 650 horsepower is available right out of the box or for $115 each, then the next 50 or less is costing at least $1500 each or more than 10 times as much. Wouldn't it be much much smarter to "dumb" down the engines by adding displacement and having everyone run "stock" engines of the same horsepower.

    The "dumbed" down engine producing the same horsepower as the top tweaked engines would probably cost not a penny more, but even if you added an extra $115 per horsepower, you would only be talking about another $7000 at the most. Which is dumber, 700 horses for $82K or for $125K?

    Now back to the other engine manufacturer, Infiniti. Supplying a small number of competitors, there cost/price situation is much different. I don't think it's a stretch to say that their customers are getting substantially discounts on their engines. Free? Maybe. Free + some cash? Possible. Or perhaps just $125K engines for $75K? Can't say that I blame them for doing any or all of these things. What else can they do? Who would pay top dollar for an engine that has only won one or two races in several years? And when Toyota gets here, we are almost surely to see more of the same.

    So what happens if Toyota or Infiniti get the upper hand on Chevy? They would be forced to either follow suit and subsidize their teams or pull out.

    Well there are the problems as I see them and I don't know if I have clue as far as a probable solution. The only thing I can see that would work is most surely a suggestion that would be screams from several directions. That is to declare one engine, available only from the manufacturer. They would be free to develop it all they wanted or could afford to, but the mandated price would have to be maintained and the same engine would have to be available to all participants.
    Some people will do nearly anything in order to be able to not do anything.

  • #2
    What you describe certainly seems to be the situation, but is it a problem?

    Racefans, fans of fast cars and horsepower, must naturally be fired up the most by the fastest and most powerful. Isn't that what attracts interest? Diversity, development, the natural progression of speed and power brought about by competition?

    Yesterday at the track, while watching all the cars, the one I paid the most attention to was naturally #52. It was fast and sounded awesome. I realize that some level of cost control is necessary, but it's not my money that these guys are spending. As a car guy, I want to see cool stuff. I would think that racefans in general feel the same way.

    To get them to tune in and to go to the track, the product has to have some punch. If it doesn't, you have mediocrity, and people cut the grass or watch golf.

    Comment


    • #3
      "What you describe certainly seems to be the situation, but is it a problem?"

      I fully understand that will be the reaction of some fans. But if I remember correctly some CART fans, said "What's the problem?"

      "Racefans, fans of fast cars and horsepower, must naturally be fired up the most by the fastest and most powerful. Isn't that what attracts interest? Diversity, development, the natural progression of speed and power brought about by competition?"

      I don't know if it's natural. Yes, but we don't have the fastest and most powerful now and really haven't had very often, if ever. There have always been rules and many if not most of these rules are to control, the costs, power and speed. We have already far surpassed the natural progression of speed and power brought about by competition. And the competition you are talking about is competition among manufacturers and engineers not racers for the most part.

      "Yesterday at the track, while watching all the cars, the one I paid the most attention to was naturally #52. It was fast and sounded awesome. I realize that some level of cost control is necessary, but it's not my money that these guys are spending. As a car guy, I want to see cool stuff. I would think that racefans in general feel the same way."

      I understand that, but if the 52 was not there would you have gone home or just picked another car to pay the most attention to, based on some other criteria? Were there no other cars there that were fast and sounded awesome? If not, we've got bigger problems than these. And indirectly it is your money. $3 hot dogs and cokes are your money. And if the fields shrink to the point of losing fan interest, you will be watching either a diminished product or paying more or both. I think all of us on here are car guys or gals and I too appreciate the technical aspects, but are they really neccesary or even acceptable in today's climate? You might be right, but if you are, then why don't we have open competion?

      To get them to tune in and to go to the track, the product has to have some punch. If it doesn't, you have mediocrity, and people cut the grass or watch golf.

      In complete agreement here, but short fields and runaway races don't provide much punch in my way of thinking. What would provide punch to me would be full fields, which would go a long way towards limiting mediorcrity. I would rather see mediorcre engineers and great drivers than the other way around.


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Some people will do nearly anything in order to be able to not do anything.

      Comment


      • #4
        All good points, of course. But I feel pretty good about the direction of the IRL right now. Three chassis and three engines next year - that's a high point in the series history. The level of interest that that will bring will not only attract more fans (we hope), but by corollary more buy-in from sponsors, yielding more funded teams and the full fields you mention.

        And sure, if Tomas hadn't been out there I would have still enjoyed the day, but it was sure fun to watch him run. Now what if I convince some non racefan friend to go check out the action because there's this exciting young hotshoe with a great car? The word gets out that good things are happening at the track (not because I told this guy, but you get what I mean) and all of a sudden 150,000 show up on Pole Day to watch a bunch of these young talents duke it out in hot cars?

        Anyway. Many rhetorical questions, I know, sorry about that. I think trends in the IRL are very promising. Gotta go be productive, have a great Sunday.

        rr

        [ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: roadracer ]

        Comment


        • #5
          Posted by Lucky161:
          Well there are the problems as I see them and I don't know if I have clue as far as a probable solution. The only thing I can see that would work is most surely a suggestion that would be screams from several directions. That is to declare one engine, available only from the manufacturer. They would be free to develop it all they wanted or could afford to, but the mandated price would have to be maintained and the same engine would have to be available to all participants.
          Bring back the Offy!

          In all seriousness, I like it that there are a couple manufacturers participating. It makes it more fun from a fan's standpoint, and there certainly is a David vs Goliath aspect to the Infiniti and Chevy situation. I always liked to root for the underdog and nothing would make me happier than see Eddie bring Infiniti into victory circle at the brickyard. Besides, once Infiniti gets their act together on relaibility, that may be the best deal going on engines because their base engine will be equally competitive with a Chevy II with all the premium go fast parts.

          jmart

          Comment


          • #6
            I see what you mean jmart, but what if the Infiniti does catch up with the Chevy? It just means that Chevy has to spend more to get back ahead. And we racefans have this habit of assuming that the underdog will make up whatever deficit they perceive to be there. What if the Infiniti never catches up. How long will they stay?
            Some people will do nearly anything in order to be able to not do anything.

            Comment


            • #7
              And, lucky makes my sig line for the very first time. People don't buy tickets to see the engineers...
              "It was actually fun, because you're back fully driving again in these trucks. Ninety percent of the tracks we go to in the IRL, you're flat-out. I was having to lift off the corners some here." - Buddy Rice

              Comment


              • #8
                Well Lucky, we are at odds again, and this time the facts show that you are indeed wrong. Here is IRL engine math 101, as presented right here at TF during the last two months. TKG bought 14 engines from Speedway Engine Development for $1.3 million, about $92,865 per engine for what is arguably the best of the IRL engines. Lucky, you said, "But the costs have escalated far beyond the league mandated $75-80K." In truth, the IRL has approved at least one engine price increase. Whatever the mandated price is now, it would be for what 'loinKing refers to as the "IRL spec engine." Builders are allowed to, within the framework of the rules, build in whatever extra power they can find. They are allowed to charge a fee for that so they can recover R&D costs and profit, you aren't against that are you? I don't know the exact figure the IRL allows for an engine now ,but I bet someone will tell us. I think it is around $85K, if so. TKG, with volume buying, got a bargain. They also have the fastest time of pre-Indy testing, for now.

                Now, also from TF, Rick Long from Speedway was on the Autosport radio show on Tuesday, his comments are here, thanks to NDGator
                http://64.226.6.90/cgi-bin/ultimateb...c&f=1&t=013958

                According to Long, a rebuild costs between $15-$20k. By coincidence, I think a team could easily run the entire 15-race IRL season and all testing with the 14 engines that TKG bought. The price difference in rebuilds probably is related to what has to be replaced. Twenty rebuilds would cost $350,000 @ an average figure of $17,500. fourteen engines would be rebuilt once, testing engines could be done twice. New engines would be used for the longest races. $1,300,000 for 14 NEW engines, $350,000 for rebuilds, Total engine costs for an IRL season would be $1,650, 000. That would give you 34 "fresh" engines at an average cost of $48,500, 34 "fresh engines are also probably more then you need. Remember Lucky, every engine isn't a throwaway after you race it once. If you don't like my method of calculation, try this one, using the same number of TKG engines, the entire 15 race season, testing, practice and racing would cost a little less then $118,000 per race. On top of that, normally the teams would have at least half of these engines remaining for testing and practice use during the next season. Every three years this changes. next year is one of those years.

                Lucky, nowhere can you justify the $125,000 price you mention for one engine. I won't even get into your ""dumbed down engine" comments, long says all engines are the same.

                For S&G's lets look at the numbers from the dark side, I showed an average cost of $118,000 for 15 events. The total cost for a 21 race season using the same IRL engine would be $2,478,000, but you would own the engines, and have something sellable left two out of three years. That would include at least 6 more new engines and as many more rebuilds. CART is asking $2.7 per team to LEASE their engines for a season, not bad considering the engines may race at 900 rpm more. It still doesn't solve their Indy fix, those engines can't be IRL legal, on cost alone!

                [ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mackie ]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Mackie, do your homework before you go off. Were all 14 purchased or some leased? Are some parts or are they all complete? Speedway engines are not cheap. Do you have the invoice? Didn't think so. Leave Lucky alone. At least he admits he doesn't have all the facts. That's why he asks questions and hopes someone in the know actually responds.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As I said, all information came from here at TF, I think the $1.3 million figure that was posted here came from the STAR and Mark's site, and the word used there were "bought or purchased." I never once saw the word leased, maybe I missed it. My information came from that. Whatever you pay for a Speedway engine is money well spent.

                    Trevor, would you care to refresh my memory as to what the present IRL price is for an engine, Lucky seems to be stuck in 1997.

                    Leave Lucky alone, he doesn't need you to speak for him. There is no malice towards him by me on either this subject or his IPS opinion.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mackie, got a reply from an email I sent out to someone who deals with Speedway. Lucky is correct, $125K.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All I can go by is what is part of public knowledge

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My 2 cents.

                          I have seen a lot of engine rules made to cut costs. In most cases the more restrictive they get, the cheeper it is to run, but it gets more expensive to run upfront. No rule is going to keep an engine builder from spending whatever it costs to find an advantage. The IRL has a good formula that if you started restricting, would make the power difference between the top and bottom even bigger. If the IRL changed the rules and dropped the engine price to $25k, the team that can afford a $150k engine will still spend the $150k to gain an advantage. In my 20 years of working with engine builders, I have yet to see a rule made that can't be taken advantage of. The IRL engine package works well, and I wouldn't mess with it.
                          "IRL" ... what IS that anyway?

                          J. Michael Ringham
                          Vice President, Marketing
                          IndyCar® Series Indy Pro Series

                          www.jonescams.com yankeegoback.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for posting the facts, Trevor. Always helpful to have real facts from someone who knows. Looks like Lucky was right.

                            FWIW - I've had the same $125K figure quoted from other sources, too.
                            "It was actually fun, because you're back fully driving again in these trucks. Ninety percent of the tracks we go to in the IRL, you're flat-out. I was having to lift off the corners some here." - Buddy Rice

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mackie, don't worry about it. I don't take it personal. If we all agreed, things would get pretty dull around here. And while I am sure your could be correct, but like RW said, I have seen that $125K figure many times on here. Now whether or not it had been verified before is a different question, but I don't remember anyone questioning it. But even if my numbers are wrong and yours are right, my main contention remains the same. The teams are struggling for money and anything that can reduce costs should be considered.

                              Trevor and RW
                              Thanks for taking up for me. I do appreciate it, although like I said, I didn't take it personally.

                              CamKing
                              As far as I am concerned, you are the expert when it comes to engines. And I have seen what you described played out many times. It didn't seem like I had just finished reading about the ASCS with their engine restrictions, that I was seeing ads for ASCS engines for $18K. This was back when WoO engines were just reaching the $20-25K mark. However until we get to the point that we have full fields, fully funded teams and don't have former winners and champions without rides and as long as costs are the main reason for those problems, then I think cost reductions are neccessary. As you and others have said, the formula works pretty well as far as on track performance and competition so far, but how long can that be maintained with money being short?
                              Some people will do nearly anything in order to be able to not do anything.

                              Comment

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