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What is the point???????

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  • What is the point???????

    Just when the "pookster" sounds like he is making sense with his his adoption of the IRL engine and chassis package and his talk of being able to run both series with the same equipment, cart makes rules that everything on the cars and engines can be changed ........... wings , bodywork , engines, gearboxes, etc.etc............ These guys just can't stand it unless they can spend a fortune changing their cars back and forth between IRL spec and cart spec. What is the point?? other than just to say they are different............ ha! Im sure that the car builders are laughing their
    butts off at the thought of manufacturing hundreds of A-arms in the same jig and stamping IRL on some of them and stamping cart on some of them so they can charge ten X as much for the cart stamped ones. bahahaha!

    Of course, the other advantage to the cart regs is that each individual team "engineer" has a free hand to make "major improvments" to the car manufacturers designs. All of these team "engineers" think that they are smarter than the guys who build the cars. Historically, other than the Penske outfit, almost all individual team development programs have resulted in miniscule gains in return for spending vast sums of the team owners money and some have even "engineered" themselves out of busineess. One team, who used to get competitve cars from Penske, usually managed to lose 10 mph just by moving the car from Penske's truck into their own truck.. ha!

    I think I have an inexpensive solution to the cartoid "WE HAVE TOO BE DIFFERENT" phobia. I think that by installing large mufflers, a "handford slab" and a little replica "pop off valve" (complete with controversial "pop off valve spacer", of course) on the IRL spec chassis, the beloved flavor of the original cart could be maintained and the cartoids would be pacified.

    Of course, there is still the problem of the "big ,ugly" air intake snorkle. I guess the cartoids could cut it off if they want to but since it has been proven over the years to be the best solution for collecting good air they may be stuck with it for a while ............... at least until some brilliant team "engineer" comes up with a better solution!!!!!

    [ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: mac miller ]


    I love any race car whose last name is "Special"


  • #2
    Nonspec, high tech, advanced engineering, low downforce, superior to the crapwagons?

    Some folks need something to crow and strut about.

    YA THINK???
    "You people worry too much. Strive for change. Root for your favorites. Enjoy the racing. Drop the flag." rev-ed, 3/04


    • #3
      If they don't play up their "technology" farce, they will lose the techno-weenie crowd. They have snowed everyone for so long into believing their technology was world class that they just can't give it up. Formula 1 runs about 15 years ahead, so all this CART technology is just a ruse.

      Where I think we are going to ROFLMAS is going to be when they try to twist those motors 12,00rpm! remember that when the IRL was turning them at just 11,000rpm that they were blowing motors on the warm up laps. Hahahahahaha. And the CART teams will be paying for those engines themselves. Comedy is just toooooooo sweeeeeeeet!!!!!

      This is the same thing as a few years ago when the speedway lowered the boost to 1 inch below what CART was doing. It was just to live the lie that they were in control of things. Role reversal is becoming a speedway specialty.

      CART can fool themselves all they want, but Tony is making the rules and Tony is setting the agenda and CART is going to have to fall lemming-like in line. Sorry, it's that role reversal thing again.
      I'm dead now.


      • #4
        [QUOTE]Originally posted by KnockOff:
        [QB]Nonspec, high tech, advanced engineering, low downforce, superior to the crapwagons?"

        LMAO!!!!!! Check out that high mounted pop off valve just in front of the cockpit!
        I'm dead now.


        • #5
          If they have been stupid enough to do that they won't cut their cost one dollar. If they have done that they are finished because of it, get out the fork and stick it in! What a darn shame, here they have the blueprint for recovery in front of their noses, and tear it up. Heck, I thought they had already shot both feet off, now the are working on the stubs!


          • #6
            Maybe they can dig up the computer that designed the Antares and have it design a new "super tech" car.
            Fan of a small Club Series bankrolled by rich men


            • #7
              Originally posted by jandj:
              <STRONG>Maybe they can dig up the computer that designed the Antares and have it design a new "super tech" car.</STRONG>
              The Antares Mantis? Man, you have been around!
              I'm dead now.


              • #8
                ha ! actually, I think that the last cars to use the Antares nose shape was the Penske PC10/11/12 series. To be totally accurate, Antares copied their high tech shapes from hanging around Wilbur Shaw's 30th street official All American Soap Box Derby hill....................... Was it just a coincidence that the Antares shape was almost identical to the 50s style soap box derby cars???????? I don't think so !!!

                [ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: mac miller ]


                I love any race car whose last name is "Special"



                • #9
                  They won't have any trouble turning the engines to 12,000 rpm.That figure is within the piston speed limit and the new specs for the bottom end were designed to tolerate more revs than the IRL uses.

                  CART teams will,however,take a beating on spending for chassis.The big bucks aren't in the tub as much as in developing new secret bits for the rest of the car.If these guys all run out and develop their own undertrays and sidepods along with wings and suspension parts,they'll be right back into the same spending derby as before.Of course,if that's what they want...............
                  Proud to be a complainer.


                  • #10
                    It appears that CART is going to retain its engine supply rules with a "cost cap" at $2.7 million (from a story on 7th Gear). If that is the case, stick a fork in CART because they are done. There aren't going to be enough teams to fork up the $5 million it is going to take to run in CART.

                    If what has been printed at 7th Gear is correct, CART found a way to screw up the IRL package. They are going to run at 12k with CART modified IRL chassis. Which means that they might have a slight increase in power (over the current CART machines) and certainly will have to continue with their Mickey Mouse wing packages on the ovals. So they'll be running IRL equipment without having IRLesque racing.

                    And it looks like they could be leaving themselves open for a major lawsuit if they are only going to utilize the IRL tub. By not having all of the IRL's mandated safety criteria, CART is negligent before the cars even turn a wheel.
                    I wish I knew - Dennis "Cutty" Wise

                    When its game time, it's pain time! - Terrible Terry Tate


                    • #11
                      we are going to ROFLMAS
                      We are....ROFLMA....subjects don't agree.

                      Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the Keenest of them all?


                      • #12
                        From Dan Gurney:
                        "It is my firm belief that rather than cutting the cost of racing which in itself is nearly impossible, it is far more important to make money more readily available by increasing the popularity and prestige of the sport with the general public."

                        Mac, you claim CART teams will go out and spend all sorts of money on little aero tweaks and it is such a waste. How many of those CART teams will spend more than Penske, is he wasting his money? As NASCAR has clearly shown, the costs that it takes to win are determined by what people are willing to spend, and not nearly as much by the rules.

                        To slinger's quote:
                        CART teams will,however,take a beating on spending for chassis.The big bucks aren't in the tub as much as in developing new secret bits for the rest of the car.If these guys all run out and develop their own undertrays and sidepods along with wings and suspension parts,they'll be right back into the same spending derby as before.Of course,if that's what they want...............

                        They will still be starting with a base package that is substantially cheaper. I do think it would be interesting to know how much less Penske will spend per race this year versus last year.

                        To Don's quote:
                        And it looks like they could be leaving themselves open for a major lawsuit if they are only going to utilize the IRL tub. By not having all of the IRL's mandated safety criteria, CART is negligent before the cars even turn a wheel.

                        Please enlight us Don as to which safety criteria CART is failing to address. To argue that because it is different and opens CART up to lawsuits is just plain crazy. Are F1 being negligent also? The worst exampe of an unsafe design in open wheel racing was with the first year IRL cars and their too rigid gear boxes.

                        [ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: BADGER ]


                        • #13
                          Here is the entire press release put out by CART yesterday:

                          IMPROVE RACES

                          Contact: Adam Saal, (321) 795-3004

                          * 3.5 Liter engines with 12,000 maximum RPMs and traction control approved
                          * Engine and chassis price caps to cut current budgets nearly in half
                          * Common open-wheel racing chassis "tub" to feature current CART aero packages
                          * Return of Friday qualifying, end of fuel "economy runs," limited timed races and an emphasis on green flag finishes among 2002 competition rules approved

                          MONTEREY, Calif. (February 9, 2002) - A productive eight-hour Championship Auto Racing Teams, Inc. (CART) Franchise Board of Directors meeting held yesterday near Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca resulted in the approval of dozens of rule changes and resolutions that locked down CART's race car package for 2003 - 2006 in addition to introducing several enhancements that will improve the racing competition in this year's CART FedEx Championship Series. The meeting was held in conjunction with the 2002 CART FedEx Championship Series Sneak Preview that is being held at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca through Sunday.

                          The key development of the meeting was the approval of CART's next generation engine and chassis package that will debut next season and be the series standard through 2006. Future CART Champ Cars will feature 3.5-liter normally aspirated (non-turbocharged) engines that will be limited to up to 12,000 rpm. Traction control will be permitted but the engines will be limited to an annual cost cap of $2.7 million for a season, including all racing and testing.

                          The engines will be coupled with race cars that will feature "tubs" - which are the central units of a race car chassis - identical to those being used by race cars competing in the Indianapolis 500, an event in which several CART teams have indicated a desire in which to race both now and in the future. The new CART chassis, however, will continue to feature CART's existing aerodynamic packages that include different set-ups for short oval tracks, road courses and superspeedways.

                          Similar to the engine program, the new CART chassis regulations will include a to-be-determined cost cap that will greatly reduce the expense of competing in the FedEx Championship Series. In total, the new engine and chassis package combined is targeted to meet a total annual operating budget of roughly $5 - $6 million per car, about half of the current price for a top effort.

                          "Our goals since the basic 3.5 liter engine formula was approved last October was to finalize an overall CART Champ Car race car package that will reduce costs and improve the racing while taking into account the current state of open-wheel auto racing in the United States and at a global level," said CART Vice President of Racing Operations John Lopes. "CART continues to offer an unparalleled line up of unique racing events contested on a variety of oval and road course race circuits both in North America and overseas. We strongly believe that our new 2003 - 2006 race car package will allow us to continue to deliver a quality CART product to all of our business partners and race fans both here in the
                          U.S. and around the world.

                          "I am also grateful to the CART Franchise Board of Directors for their tireless efforts and swift action in both yesterday's meeting and our meeting last month in St. Petersburg, Florida," Lopes continued. "What we have accomplished in those meetings was nothing short of the most
                          significant changes in the history of CART and this could only be accomplished through the unified efforts of all involved. We have clearly charted our course for the future and will now shift our efforts into working with existing and potential manufacturer suppliers and teams to join us as we take CART Champ Car racing to another level."

                          Additional developments for the new package included the approval of engine and chassis supply criteria and the adoption of a cost-capped gearbox that will be capped in the $60,000 range. Although not "spec" units from a single manufacturer, the gearboxes will follow uniform rules constraints.

                          "I also want to extend my thanks to the CART Race Operations staff who have worked very closely with all of our teams, drivers and manufacturer partners in providing the Board with the necessary information to make these critical decisions. This includes Director of Technology and Competition Lee Dykstra, Director of Electronics Jeff Horton, Senior Manager of Competition Gary Barnard, Chief Steward Wally Dallenbach and CART Steward Chris Kneifel."

                          2002 COMPETITION CHANGES

                          In addition to the locking down the long-term CART Champ Car race car package, the Franchise Board also approved several rules and resolutions that will greatly enhance the racing competition in the 2002 CART FedEx Championship Series. Among the mandates of new CART President and CEO Chris Pook is to increase the "show" value of CART racing events in order to provide a better and more entertaining event for race fans on site and watching FedEx Championship Series races on SPEED Channel, Fox Network and CBS television.

                          "We established at the St. Petersburg board meeting an environment in which the world's automotive manufacturers and sponsors could justify a new or continuing involvement in CART with the establishment of our four-year rules freeze that will be applied to the new race car package," Pook said. "Now, we need to shift our attention to our current situation as we head into the 2002 FedEx Championship Series season. We believe the CART FedEx Championship Series provides one of the most entertaining forms of motorsport in the world. Our new partnership with the FOX family of networks, that is anchored by an unprecedented level of programming on FOX, CBS and SPEED Channel, gives us an
                          outstanding opportunity to showcase our sport in new and innovative ways. In order to do this, I urged the board to consider several enhancements to our racing events and I am delighted and grateful that they saw fit to clear the majority of these initiatives yesterday."

                          The list of enhancements includes the following:

                          The return of Friday qualifying at road course races and a revised qualifying procedure that will see the fastest driver from each day of qualifying awarded a bonus point. Each race's pole winner will again be determined by the fastest lap of both Friday and Saturday qualifying sessions, but the provisional pole winner will be guaranteed a front row starting spot regardless of the outcome of final qualifying.

                          "These enhancements add a couple of additional elements in qualifying on which fans can focus," Pook said. "The front row 'lock' truly awards drivers that are putting it all on the line for the fans on Friday while the second-day single point bonus creates something for the drivers to
                          shoot for, even in the event of a rain situation. Considering the 1999 FedEx Championship Series ended deadlocked (with Juan Montoya winning in a tiebreaker), you can believe drivers will always try to get every point available to them."

                          Additional qualifying enhancements include the establishment of a maximum of 15 timed laps per session with a guaranteed 45 minutes (of a 60 minute session) of green flag time at road course events. Additionally, all race cars will qualify in one group. The penalty for creating a red flag situation in road course qualifying has also been changed. Drivers causing such conditions will now lose their fastest lap in that session rather than be parked for eight minutes in the pits as has been the case the last few seasons. The practice of carry over penalties to the next race has
                          also been abolished.

                          Oval track qualifying order will also revert to the inverse of that weekend's total practice speeds, with the fastest drivers of the weekend to that point qualifying last. Pit lane speed limits have also been abolished in oval track qualifying.

                          "These efforts are being done to put a little showmanship into our qualifying," Pook said. "By having the limited number of laps in road course qualifying, it will be easy to anticipate when a driver is going to make a flying run for the pole. On the ovals, lifting the speed limit will
                          bring back tire warming burnouts as drivers head on to the track to make a qualifying run. And eliminating eight-minute stoppages as penalties will keep our cars and drivers on the race track where they should be. This is all great stuff."

                          Race finishes under caution have also been addressed with CART committing to red flag stoppages for late-race incidents whenever possible. Extended full-course caution flag periods will also be minimized and CART will now follow the worldwide FIA standard for local caution flag periods whenever possible. This basically lengthens the on-track area of the local caution period from flag station to flag station while leaving
                          the pits open the entire time.

                          "Even if it comes down to 'green-white-checker' we want our races to end under green when we can," Pook said. "And the more local yellows we have, the more we can keep the pits open and the more racing we can keep on the track."

                          Timed races and fuel conscious "economy runs" have also been given some needed attention. Although miles-per-gallon fuel stipulations will still be in place, CART Race Operations will develop a formula that will give competitors more than enough fuel to compete "flat out" in FedEx
                          Championship Series races. The details of this exact formula will be announced at a later date. Additionally, timed races will rarely be mandated this season due in large part to the increased amount of television time available within the SPEED Channel relationship.

                          "A timed race may occasionally be required but the trend of such timed races becoming the norm rather than the exception is over," Pook said.

                          "Our fans and competitors deserve a full show and that is what they will get. And the fact that competitors will no longer be constrained by fuel restrictions is just another addition to the package. This all comes down to creating a competitive and entertaining show."

                          Championship Auto Racing Teams, Inc. (NYSE: MPH) owns, operates and markets the FedEx Championship Series. Former series champions
                          Michael Andretti and Jimmy Vasser are among the stars who will battle for the 2002 FedEx Championship Series title on ovals, temporary street circuits and permanent road courses. The 2002 CART FedEx Championship Series season kicks off March 10 at Monterrey, Mexico and the 19-race schedule will be broadcast by new television partners, CBS and Fox Cable Networks Group, including Speedvision/Speed Channel.
                          CART also owns and operates its top development series, the CART Toyota Atlantic Championship. Learn more about CART's open-wheel racing series at CART.com.


                          • #14
                            How bout that Greg Ray guy?He's pretty good isn't he?


                            • #15
                              I watched a few CART road races last year. Since they're already figuring on making changes to the externals of "tubs identical to those in the Indianapolis 500," allow me to make a suggestion, which will greatly reduce attrition:

                              Nerf bars.

                              [ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Racewriter ]
                              "It was actually fun, because you're back fully driving again in these trucks. Ninety percent of the tracks we go to in the IRL, you're flat-out. I was having to lift off the corners some here." - Buddy Rice


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