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Question about Judd and TWR future CART and IRL engines?

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  • Question about Judd and TWR future CART and IRL engines?

    Are CART's TWR engines or Judd engines based on any existing IRL engines??

    I know they could not be used in the 500 without being approved and used in the IRL.
    http://www.seventhgear.com/topstorie...hp?news_id=538
    Man to Man is so unjust... there's no Man you can Trust.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Brickman:
    <STRONG>Are CART's TWR engines or Judd engines based on any existing IRL engines??

    I know they could not be used in the 500 without being approved and used in the IRL.
    http://www.seventhgear.com/topstorie...hp?news_id=538</STRONG>
    I will take a shot here. My understanding is the TWR will be the Infiniti. The Judd will probably be the Chevy. If nothing changes in the IRL rules, only the Toyota teams in CART can run the Indy 500 and any other IRL races.

    HOWEVER, if you are with TWR in CART, he will probably just take the name off the engine for CART and put the sticker on it for Indy 500 use. OR, just give you and Infiniti in the crate. Judd will probably become an IRL approved builder. That way he can badge them "Judds" for CART and you can run a Chevy in the Indy 500 or other IRL events.

    My guess is by 2003 the names Toyota, Infiniti, and Chevy will be in CART and the IRL. Lola, Reynard, G Force, and Dallara will also be in CART and the IRL. Honda will probably announce in the coming months that they plan on building a NA 3.5 engine for 2004. Ford will probably do the same.

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    • #3
      The Judd will turn into a Honda. Not until 2004 once Judd has the bugs worked out of the CART only engine. It's that F1 connection.
      Terrible moderators can destroy great forums

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      • #4
        The way I see it, the IRL needs to NOT approve any engines that will be used in CART. It has been stated by GM and Nissan that they will NOT supply any CART teams. Toyota has stated that they will provide engines to CART teams(up to 10) if they are not the sole provider of engines in the series. Rumor has it that Judd will develop a CART spec engine(12,000 rpm limit)for 2003. If the IRL is smart, they will NOT approve this engine if it is submitted.
        This whole IRL vs. CART war will continue for years, with lackluster TV ratings and sponsorship problems, if the waters stay muddied the way they are. GM and Nissan(Infiniti) are smart taking only ONE side. Toyota sounds like it's being politically correct with its statement, but knows that they probably will not supply CART in 2003, since there are currently no other manufacturers there for CART. The only way for this war to end is for one side to win it convincingly over the other. So far, the IRL has won most of the battles. Don't stop now! Win the war! Since CART has adopted pseudo-IRL rules, for the opportunity to cherry pick INDY, make it hard on them to come over. Don't make it easier. If it's easy, they come to the races they want, compete to win them, and then leave to the refuge of their own series.......blowing the CART trumpet. If CART teams come to the IRL, make them come and stay or make it very expensive for them to do it one-off.

        The only other alternative is for the IRL and CART to sign an agreement that the IRL sanctions ALL oval races and that CART sanctions ALL road/street races. Use the same equipment, and whomever wants to cross over....can. This still leaves the waters somewhat murky......but in the end, both series can survive.

        My ideal solution is for the IRL to make its chassis more oval style and less formula style. This encourages development in oval specialist racers. CART needs to go with its own technology---18in wheels, full skirted ground effects, enclosed rear wheels-open front wheels, bubble canopies, wider tire treads, etc. Road/street courses only, encouraging development in road racers. Differentiate the two series completely, and both will survive better. JMO
        Third Gen Indy Fan

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        • #5
          Doesn't the Judd and TWR need to be approved by the IRL in advance and be able to supply teams using it?


          So it sounds like it boils down to if you are a CART team and you race in CART with a TWR then when you race at Indy you will use the Infiniti.

          Same goes for the Judd. Race in CART using the Judd... in the IRL you put your CART engine in storage and use a Chevy or something else.
          Man to Man is so unjust... there's no Man you can Trust.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by irlrules98:
            <STRONG>It has been stated by GM and Nissan that they will NOT supply any CART teams. Toyota has stated that they will provide engines to CART teams(up to 10) if they are not the sole provider of engines in the series. </STRONG>
            Toyota will supply CART in 2003 and must according to the 2003 rules supply at least half of the field. The IRL Infinity's are prepared by TWR. TWR and Judd are also going to be CART suppliers in 2003. The only thing left to speculation is whose engine will the Judd's really be - or will be in the future. CART has three engine provders for 2003.
            Kevin Kalkhoven on Champ Car: "The amount of money we're spending is very little overall and I can afford to run this thing forever."

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            • #7
              According to Robin Miller ( http://espn.go.com/rpm/cart/2002/0209/1326325.html )John Judd was a guest of Honda at Laguna Seca.

              Nissan pays TWR to develop their IRL engine. If Nissan pays, they can have their name on the engines in CART too. If not, the TWR CART teams just change the engine covers at Indy.

              What should be really interesting is how the IRL polices traction control. It will be legal in CART, so manufacturers will be actively developing it. If it is banned in the IRL, how do they ensure nobody runs it?

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              • #8
                Judd has nothing at all to do with the GM IRL program. The way it looks now, the only CART engine program that has any cross over benefit for Indy will be Toyota.

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                • #9
                  The TWR/Infiniti is an approved IRL engine. If changed to CART spec, it's not approved IRL spec. Infiniti has said no to CART. TWR may have something else for CART, but they will not be "valve cover change" legal in the IRL. Sorry. It aint that easy. I don't look for it to be IRL approved.
                  GM has said no to CART. Toyota has said 10 cars max.......and that may well be half the CART field in 2003. Look for Judd to do his own engine, and he always has. Look for the IRL to not approve it either. TG knows that if he makes it too easy for CART teams to cherry pick, he hurts his own leagues future.
                  Third Gen Indy Fan

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by irlrules98:
                    <STRONG>The TWR/Infiniti is an approved IRL engine. If changed to CART spec, it's not approved IRL spec. Infiniti has said no to CART. TWR may have something else for CART, but they will not be "valve cover change" legal in the IRL. Sorry. It aint that easy. I don't look for it to be IRL approved.
                    GM has said no to CART. Toyota has said 10 cars max.......and that may well be half the CART field in 2003. Look for Judd to do his own engine, and he always has. Look for the IRL to not approve it either. TG knows that if he makes it too easy for CART teams to cherry pick, he hurts his own leagues future.</STRONG>
                    So TWR's Infiniti is legal in the IRL.

                    TWR's no badged engine (Infiniti) is legal in CART.

                    Judd (CART spec)is only legal in CART.

                    What does the Judd have to do to be legal in the IRL? Is it based on an existing manufacturer's engine?
                    Man to Man is so unjust... there's no Man you can Trust.

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                    • #11
                      The fact is, all the IRL engine suppliers have committed to supplying up to half of the IRL field. Outside that they can do whatever they want.

                      Starting in 2003 GM, Nissan, and Infiniti can basically compete in CART with little additional expense. In boiled down theory all they need to do is produce more equipment and sell it to the builders who will make the mods and sell to the CART teams. GM, Nissan, and Infiniti have one year from today to plan production and consider whether they want to play the name game.

                      A lot of people around here want to continue to subscribe to the CART will get sloppy seconds theory and that is just fine. It is going to take about 9 months or so but the picture will be real clear in October of this year.

                      As far as Judd, it is possible he will only do CART stuff. However, teams using a Judd in CART can get a different engine for IRL use if need be.

                      I will take that bet that Infiniti will be saying "yes" to Pook.

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                      • #12
                        Doesn't anyone remember the Judd/Honda engines of the mid-to-late 80's?

                        Bobby Rahal won the Pocono 500 with one.

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                        • #13
                          Why do people think TWR's motor is going to be the Infiniti? They can't even get past the 4 cars in the IRL as of now. TG knows that prolonging this feud will keep the IRL's ratings from growing.....defeating the enemy is paramount to aiding the IRL's growth. If Toyota supplying CART teams causes problems in the IRL..then drop them as a suppplier.
                          Third Gen Indy Fan

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                          • #14
                            Here's some pieces of the puzzle: CART has also said that engines will be supplied by Toyota, TWR and Judd. John Judd was a guest of Honda at the CART Sneak Preview. Honda has been talking a lot more positively about CART since Pook took over.

                            My take: Honda is paying Judd to develop their new CART (and maybe IRL) engine. Once the bugs are worked out, and Honda will give the okay to put their name on it. (My guess is in 2004)

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                            • #15
                              Judd is banking on being picked up by a manufacturer. They've said that that's what they hope will happen (read that somewhere, can't remember where). So I don't think you'll see the Judd based on an existing engine.

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