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**Z28** · 08-18-2003, 01:12 PM

They might have a right to complain if the new Chevies dominated qualifying or the top finishing positions but Sam was fast two years ago, he was fast last year and now he has an engine equal to the T and H and he's fast now. Chip started things calling the Gen IV a one off, well it was for two races and now it's what there is for Chevy. T and H are going to complain and find out that they don't run the league the way they did with CART. They're particpants and not being treated unfairly and they'll learn that what's good for the league is what matters and not what's best for T and H.

**BigWheelHawaii** · 08-18-2003, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Z28
They might have a right to complain if the new Chevies dominated qualifying or the top finishing positions but Sam was fast two years ago, he was fast last year and now he has an engine equal to the T and H and he's fast now. Chip started things calling the Gen IV a one off, well it was for two races and now it's what there is for Chevy. T and H are going to complain and find out that they don't run the league the way they did with CART. They're particpants and not being treated unfairly and they'll learn that what's good for the league is what matters and not what's best for T and H.

Aloha Z Man,,,,

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Here's a Double Bingo for you,,,, Your got it buddie,,,,

Just like I told my last Wifey,,,, "Honey It's My Way,,,, Or the Highway....

I been on the road,,, for about ten years now .... LOL

But You Got It,,,, the much coveted "Double Bingo Award".... Congrat's,,,, Buddie...

**BigWheelHawaii** · 08-18-2003, 01:45 PM

Re: Why the MFG whining ???

Originally posted by Jimmy_22
Three cars lapped the field - represented by all three mfg's. Yes, Sam checked out, but anyone that has watched Panther knows they have superior car setups. Only one other Chevy in the top 10.

The big money T and H teams are only whining 'cause the IRL opened Pandora's box and they have an excuse to whine. And, there's no way the league would have allowed the Gen IV if it was that far superior.

My suggestion - keep up with Sam and stop whining.

Aloha Jimmy,,,

Some way I missed your post,,,, sorry...

You Too,,,,, Will Get That Much Coveted,,,, Double Bingo Award,,,,

Congrat's Buddie,,,,,

**Longhorn** · 08-18-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Z28
They might have a right to complain if the new Chevies dominated qualifying or the top finishing positions but Sam was fast two years ago, he was fast last year and now he has an engine equal to the T and H and he's fast now. Chip started things calling the Gen IV a one off, well it was for two races and now it's what there is for Chevy. T and H are going to complain and find out that they don't run the league the way they did with CART. They're particpants and not being treated unfairly and they'll learn that what's good for the league is what matters and not what's best for T and H.

Do you really believe that or are you just hoping that?

**Jimmy_22** · 08-18-2003, 08:25 PM

My first ,,,,,,, Bingo Award ,,,,,,,

**indyrjc** · 08-18-2003, 08:45 PM

Sam made a believer out of me at Kentucky in 2000. He led for several laps that day when he was still an unknown name driving for PDM Racing. These were the first laps that Sam ever led in the IRL. PDM was doing their own in-house engine rebuilds at the time so there was no horsepower advantage over anybody. Sam simply drove around people making his own high groove that no one else seemed able to run in. He's been passing people ever since no matter how much or how little his engine is putting out on any given day.

**Kart29** · 08-19-2003, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by indyrjc
Sam made a believer out of me at Kentucky in 2000. He led for several laps that day when he was still an unknown name driving for PDM Racing. These were the first laps that Sam ever led in the IRL. PDM was doing their own in-house engine rebuilds at the time so there was no horsepower advantage over anybody. Sam simply drove around people making his own high groove that no one else seemed able to run in. He's been passing people ever since no matter how much or how little his engine is putting out on any given day.

Me too! along with Jaques L.. But remember, Jimmy Kite had Sam and Jaques and all the rest of the field completely whipped up until the last pit stop.

So, Jimmy, what's the point of having a three year homologation for the series? If one brand of chassis was hopelessly outclassed, would the league allow the mfg to replace it with a completely different chassis? What's the incentive for Toyota and Honda to compete if any advantage they achieve will be cancelled out by the league allowing anyone and everyone else to catch up. Like you said, I think it's a pandora's box that could lead to "managed competition" if there is such a thing. Chevy, Toyota, and Honda all had the same rule book and the same opportunity to build their enging. Now because Chevy got whooped we need to give them a second chance. To be fair, wouldn't we have to allow Toyota and Honda to substitute their current engine with a completely new design if they wish? If the league does it for one mfg but not the other all of a sudden we've got politics involved - and I really hate to see that. I don't think allowing all new engine designs every six months is going to accomplish the IRL's goals of cost containment and equal access to equipment that were pillars of the IRL's principles.

I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, having three engine mfg involved in close competition is great for the teams and fans short term, I really think it opens the league up to bigger problems in the future.

**LeaderCardFan** · 08-19-2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Z28
They might have a right to complain if the new Chevies dominated qualifying or the top finishing positions but Sam was fast two years ago, he was fast last year and now he has an engine equal to the T and H and he's fast now. Chip started things calling the Gen IV a one off, well it was for two races and now it's what there is for Chevy. T and H are going to complain and find out that they don't run the league the way they did with CART. They're particpants and not being treated unfairly and they'll learn that what's good for the league is what matters and not what's best for T and H.

So are you saying that Toyota and Honda leave, that be good for the league?

**Professor Joe** · 08-19-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Kart29
...what's the point of having a three year homologation for the series? If one brand of chassis was hopelessly outclassed, would the league allow the mfg to replace it with a completely different chassis?

Yes, they would. They were prepared to do this for R&S, but they didn't have the money to redesign with no customers, and Dallara and G-Force chassis were already available and for sale to the few customers they had.

What's the incentive for Toyota and Honda to compete if any advantage they achieve will be cancelled out by the league allowing anyone and everyone else to catch up.

You just realized the brilliance of the IRL's rules. The IRL is set up to be a fairly even playing field for manufacturer promotion and advertising, not a field for frontier engineering competition. There is SUPPOSED to be a disincentive built in for major development costs. T&H should have known this when they got in and shouldn't complain about it now.

Like you said, I think it's a pandora's box that could lead to "managed competition" if there is such a thing.

I only have a problem with managed competition when they take away things that teams already have. The IRL doesn't do this.

Chevy, Toyota, and Honda all had the same rule book and the same opportunity to build their enging.(Did you just break into Popeye speak?) Now because Chevy got whooped we need to give them a second chance.

You act as if Chevy isn't paying a price with this. They are paying a huge price - in corporate pride within the racing community that knows the source of their salvation and in pure $$$$ wasted in the design of the GenIII and the short developmental time required to bring the GenIV to the track. The advantage for T&H is that, by doing the job right the first time, they can concentrate on the details of their engine and don't have to spend the money developing a new engine. Now, if they do it with no prospect of being able to introduce it based on competitive inequalities, that is their problem, but their money to spend.

To be fair, wouldn't we have to allow Toyota and Honda to substitute their current engine with a completely new design if they wish? If the league does it for one mfg but not the other all of a sudden we've got politics involved - and I really hate to see that.

Nope, we don't have to. We expect that Honda will request to introduce a Honda-designed engine for 2004, and that request will probably be granted. There is no evidence that there is a horsepower difference between the Chevy and the Toyota, so there is no reason to allow Toyota to make a major change. If they have new heads on the shelf, or a new intake manifold, there might now be reason for them to request implementing those pieces. Politics is going to be a part of any series. Racers are always going to complain and officials are always going to have to make human decisions.

I don't think allowing all new engine designs every six months is going to accomplish the IRL's goals of cost containment and equal access to equipment that were pillars of the IRL's principles.

This is one of those times when T&H are paying the price exactly to maintain cost containment and equal access to equipment. If T&H engines were freely available for sale at reasonable prices, some of the Chevy teams might have changed, leaving Chevy with too few teams to justify their investment in the GenIV. That would have effectively eliminated them from competition, just like R&S lost out in the chassis situation. But, because T&H like to play their little exclusivity games, to the detriment of the health of the series (see cart, IMSA, etc.), the IRL had to make sure there was a viable third option.

I think it is funny that, with a full year of development and all the money spent on engineering and paying off teams, Toyota was blown out of the water by an engine that was designed as a side project in its first times out. That is what really has Lee White steamed.

**Professor Joe** · 08-19-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by LeaderCardFan
So are you saying that Toyota and Honda leave, that be good for the league?

As Racewriter noted in another thread, last year with a year dominated by one manufacturer that made engines freely available, we had 26+ cars at most races. This year we are down to 20.

**FCYTravis** · 08-19-2003, 01:24 PM

Because whining is what manufacturers do.

**mnkywrch** · 08-19-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Professor Joe
I think it is funny that, with a full year of development and all the money spent on engineering and paying off teams, Toyota was blown out of the water by an engine that was designed as a side project in its first times out. That is what really has Lee White steamed.

That, and he got burned with his "Bring 'em on" comments he made.

**Jimmy_22** · 08-19-2003, 01:36 PM

Bottom Line - The IRL did the right thing for race fans that DON'T spend half their day on Internet forums. Most race fans want to see good competition and a level playing field. We now have that.

**Professor Joe** · 08-19-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by mnkywrch
That, and he got burned with his "Bring 'em on" comments he made.

Don't you love that!

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