Re: My mythical '04 schedule - On Second Thought . . .

[FenderFree]

. . . Maybe the IRL should stay clear of Canada.

I followed a link on 'Ron's IRL Page' that led to an article on TSN.ca (ESPN's Canadian affiliate) about how Toronto could possibly become an IRL event if CART dies. The article itself was quite positive. What was below it however . . .

At the bottom were reader submitted opinions. Roughly 70% of them dissed the IRL and said they would never go back to the Toronto Indy if it became an IRL event!

Gee, I didn't think my fellow countrymen knew or cared that much about the split. I thought they just enjoyed the race and didn't get involved in the politics.

My naive little brain.

[mattndallas]

That's why I don't get the automatic assumptions that the IRL HAS to add Long Beach, Toronto, Road A, etc if CART fails. Everyone claims "Long Beach is a money-maker, so you have to pick it up".

How is it a money maker? If 1/2 of the fans that go are "CART fans", that would not dig the IRL, why is there an assumption that they would still go.

Other than Milwaukee, I say let the old CART venues die on a vine, no matter how successful they currently are. No matter what, there will be fall off when the IRL moves in, and more press harping about "how it was in the good old days when CART was here".

Could the IRL "option" a road or street race, pre-committing to it if, and only if, the race pre-sells 60,000 tickets or so? Otherwise, why even do it?

Add Houston, Vegas, Daytona (during Speedweeks only), Atlanta, and that Iowa track (if it gets built) if you need growth.

Only go to road/streets if you pre-sell 60K tickets.

[b real]

You're judging Canadian fans by the responses of about 20 people? These are die-hard CART fans; not racing fans.

There are about 70,000 people on race day at Toronto. I would bet that 50,000 of them could not name any of the non-Canadian drivers. They are there for the event; not because they are big CART fans. Very few people would notice or care if a different series showed up. If Molsons supported and promoted the event as they have in the past, the attendance will be the same.

Last year when the future of CART started to be questioned I heard that the organizers of the Molson Indy weren't worried because they already had something lined up. Who else would it be but the IRL? NASCAR? No way. F1? No Way.

This is the second time today I've had to defend Canada!

[Shadow101]

Yes, let's not blame Canada

Road courses are inevitable. There are too many good tracks such as Road Atlanta, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Laguna, etc. for the business side of top-level OW racing to ignore.

Realistically, whether you like road courses or not, the IRL will not be able to grow their oval track events much more significantly than what they have. Do you think ISC, who tolerates them now as a niche product, will really offer up their other tracks if the IRL starts to chip into NASCAR's status as the #1 US motorsports series? Pure speculation on my part, but I would say NO.

I particularly don't care for temp courses, but a few such as Toronto, LB, and Cleveland, would be a nice mix as they have proven to be financially stable. I live near Cleveland and trust me, the average moron who goes to the Cleveland GP does not care if it's an IRL, CART, or whatever event. If you lose the few radicals who hate the IRL, is it really a big loss? A true racing fan will come out to watch a good product.

[mattndallas]

B real and Shadow -

I kinda feel the same as you, but if the media gets on the side of the CART radicals (which they often do when on payroll), you could see a flood of "it ain't as good cause it ain't CART" articles coming out, and the events could suffer.

I'll watch the IRL street/road venues if I have nothing better to do, but if it comes down to 18 holes on a Sunday afternoon, or IRL or CART road/street race, I'll be out on the links.

To me:

IRL oval racing = Indiana U basketball - watch every game, schedule life around them

IRL/CART Street/Road racing = NBA basketball - will watch if I've got nothing better to do, but usually I do.

[MicroRacer]

This is what gets me, is that we are now talking about adding Toronto a street race and Long Beech, and I remember Tony reference to road courses and he only said a couple.

I don't see any possible way that if the IRL adds road courses it will only be for a couple. I do know one thing I will not spent any money to see the IRL on a road courses and if I have something to do I won't be spending my time watching them either.

[Shadow101]

Originally posted by MicroRacer
This is what gets me, is that we are now talking about adding Toronto a street race and Long Beech, and I remember Tony reference to road courses and he only said a couple.

I don't see any possible way that if the IRL adds road courses it will only be for a couple. I do know one thing I will not spent any money to see the IRL on a road courses and if I have something to do I won't be spending my time watching them either.

Actually, I think all the talk is on TF, the IRL has not specifically stated that they will add road courses and which ones. They have only stated that they will be prepared to do so should the oppty present itself, which is a sound business plan.

One reason OW TV ratings inhale vigorously, and attendance is down at most tracks, is that the real race fan has been worn down due to the idiotic politics over the last ten years. I'm an Indy 500 ticket holder for over 20 years. I went to Michigan religously between 1989-99. Mid-Ohio since 1983. Cleveland since it's inception. Toronto several times. I would love to go to KY and Nashville. But my last race attended was the 2001 Indy 500. I've grown weary of all the bickering and having to choose "which side" to give my hard earned $$ too. So I've chosen neither, and I suspect that there are a lot out there like me who would gladly start coming back out to any race track if we're given just a smidge of intelligent decision making by the powers that be. I like all racing, regardless of type. I get the same thrill watching top caliber OW drivers run wheel to wheel at MIS as I do reclining in my lawn chair at Mid-Ohio watching these same drivers battle the track and each other. So I'm sorry, but I cannot sympathize with your point of view.

[Z28]

Originally posted by Shadow101
Yes, let's not blame Canada

Road courses are inevitable. There are too many good tracks such as Road Atlanta, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Laguna, etc. for the business side of top-level OW racing to ignore.

Realistically, whether you like road courses or not, the IRL will not be able to grow their oval track events much more significantly than what they have. Do you think ISC, who tolerates them now as a niche product, will really offer up their other tracks if the IRL starts to chip into NASCAR's status as the #1 US motorsports series? Pure speculation on my part, but I would say NO.

When you say there are too many good tracks for the business side, look at CART's history and ask why in the mid to late 80's and mid 90's they didn't do to good oval tracks. They didn't even consider Charlotte, Atlanta, Rockingham, Richmond or Daytona. Wrong markets, tracks not conducive to their race cars, BUT you want the all oval IRL to go to road courses.

Your pure speculation seems to say that ISC would rather not have events that could actually gain in attendance, despite the fact you believe it to be impossible, than to work with the most viable open wheel series around. ISC like most people know the IRL could well make gains but it will not be at the expense of NASCAR. This year every NASCAR race but Bristol is advertising heavily that they have seats avaiable. ISC and SMI have stopped expanding their seating because the huge growth surge they had is slowed or stopped at least for the time being with the economy.

[Shadow101]

Originally posted by Z28
When you say there are too many good tracks for the business side, look at CART's history and ask why in the mid to late 80's and mid 90's they didn't do to good oval tracks. They didn't even consider Charlotte, Atlanta, Rockingham, Richmond or Daytona. Wrong markets, tracks not conducive to their race cars, BUT you want the all oval IRL to go to road courses.

Your pure speculation seems to say that ISC would rather not have events that could actually gain in attendance, despite the fact you believe it to be impossible, than to work with the most viable open wheel series around. ISC like most people know the IRL could well make gains but it will not be at the expense of NASCAR. This year every NASCAR race but Bristol is advertising heavily that they have seats avaiable. ISC and SMI have stopped expanding their seating because the huge growth surge they had is slowed or stopped at least for the time being with the economy.

#1. It seems that CART made a conscious choice to add more street courses at that time in lieu of ovals or permanent road courses. You will note Road Atlanta, Sears Point, Mosport, etc are still not part of their schedule along with the ovals mentioned.

#2. Sure, I would like the IRL to add road courses because I enjoy both oval and road OW racing. Sorry about that but it's who I am. If they stay all ovals, that's fine too. I have no vested interest one way or the other. Give me a good show and I'll go watch it. I would like to see both types of tracks and some dirt ovals, with the best drivers in the world duking it out.

#3. I don't believe anywhere in my statement that I said the IRL would not or could not grow, my statement if read carefully, says that it may be difficult for them to add to their existing track base if the IRL does hit its potential and thereby threaten NASCAR for advertising and TV dollars.

Would ISC, who is still tied to the NASCAR wagon IIRC, use their control of many of the existing and potential tracks used by the IRL to squeeze the IRL's growth? I think that this is an intriguing question. Would the ISC chose profit vs control of racing's money supply?

Certainly there are the SMI tracks that should play a role, like Charlotte and Atlanta, but there are also some very viable road courses that have the fan base to support top level OW racing. I think TG is being prudent to his "vision" to develop any opportunity that exists that would help his organization.