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  • Road Racing - Cost?

    I seen it quoted that the chassis is going to cost an additional $125,000 to go road racing. I'm sure the engine cost is also going to go up too, because now an engine has to create horsepower in a different band than does the all-oval engine. It makes sense that the engine builder are going to pass that increase down.

    So what is the total cost going to be to go road racing. I'm guessing that it will cost an extra $250,000 per car to go road racing. You are going to have to race quite a few road courses to get make that additional cost feasible.


    One of the biggest arguments in NASCAR that I hear when they are racing road courses is that they have to have special cars engines and transmissions just to run road courses and that just having 2 road courses a year does not come close to what they have to spend just to run them. I have heard where owners want to totally get rid of their road course or have more than just the 2.

    The IRL originally was supposed to be about lowering cost. What happened? Everything the IRL is doing now seems to be raising the cost of racing. With sponsorship getting harder and harder to come by you would think the league would be looking at ways to lower cost not increase them.
    I would think by now that this administration would have a clue as to what it takes to get the job done. So, Get-er-done!!!!!

  • #2
    Yes, this is one thing that I am not happy about with the league. I like some road courses, and would not mind seeing the IRL run on them, but costs are already an issue... why make them more of one??
    One driver's "fuel strategy" is another driver's "speed up or we will park you!"

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    • #3
      For a league that is having a hard time putting 21 cars on the track, the idea that they would mandate changes that are going make the racing more expensive is total lunacy.

      The league should be looking at ways to REDUCE costs for 04, so that they can get 26 - 27 regular entrants at the non-Indy races. That way, there are enough cars to have a meaningful second weekend of qualifying at Indy.

      Comment


      • #4
        I will not chime in on whether it's good or not for the IRL to turn right just yet. Instead, I believe the basis of this thread is a good one. What's needed to turn right ? More specifically, what are the chassis changes needed to accomplish this and their costs?

        I'll get the list going, but I don't know very much about the costs. Someone will have to help with that.

        Brakes - IRL cars currently use carbon-fiber. They could still use them, but it would be expensive since there will be a lot more more breaking. So, let's assume steel.

        Wings - Both front and rear-end. How much more per chassis?

        Suspension - I'm sure a different set will have to be used here.

        Tranny - More shifting will have to mean more resistance.
        "Don't believe the hype!"

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        • #5
          Don't forget to add in the cost of a back-up car, spare engines, etc. If it's different for the RC, you'll need a spare for it as well as the one on the car. Some of the smaller teams don't have a spare chassis now. So right away they are priced out of the league. Will there be any replacements for them or will the car count like everythingelse become just like CART? No right turns, period! :mad: :mad:
          "The older I get, the faster I used to be!"

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          • #6
            [i]Originally posted by mesquite

            I'll get the list going, but I don't know very much about the costs. Someone will have to help with that.



            Wings - Both front and rear-end. How much more per chassis?


            Short track wings would work fine...



            Suspension - I'm sure a different set will have to be used here.

            The only offset is in the LF upright...It has positive camber built into it..Other than that no big deal...

            [/B]


            I am not in favor of IRL road racing...
            But with the right rules package not much needs changing.. Some fuel cell mods and increased cooling for the engine and brakes.

            Single point fueling and moving the airjack to the rear of the car is needed anyway..
            To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 11 posts.

            Molon Labe!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by $noopy
              Don't forget to add in the cost of a back-up car, spare engines, etc. If it's different for the RC, you'll need a spare for it as well as the one on the car. Some of the smaller teams don't have a spare chassis now. So right away they are priced out of the league. Will there be any replacements for them or will the car count like everythingelse become just like CART? No right turns, period! :mad: :mad:

              The chassis would be the same...
              To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 11 posts.

              Molon Labe!

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              • #8
                I already posted this in another thread, but it seems appropriate here.

                . But why do they need different brakes, suspension and transmissions? Especially to the tune of an extra $100-125K?

                Will the existing brakes compell the drivers to go off at every turn or will they still have see through visors to indicate where to let off and brake? Will the existing suspension parts that can take the G loads of Michigan and Texas fall down going into a turn at 100 mph? What will happen if a driver in an IRL car with steering not modified for road racing tries to turn right? At $50K a copy, the current transmissions can't be shifted up and down? WTF?


                __________________
                Last edited by Lucky161; 07-29-2003, 08:22 PM.
                Some people will do nearly anything in order to be able to not do anything.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lucky161
                  I already posted this in another thread, but it seems appropriate here.

                  "Doesn't sound like anyone with any influence wants very many of these things."
                  I saw that when you posted it in the other thread and if (the quotation marks are a bit confusing) you're saying that no one with influence wants the IRL to run on road courses (and streets) you clearly haven't been paying attention to some recent articles.

                  Tony George wants them.

                  Barnhart wants them.

                  Toyota wants them.

                  Honda wants them.

                  Penske wants them.

                  Gil wants them.

                  Helio wants them.

                  Michael Andretti wants them.

                  Steve Newey (Kelley Racing) wants them.

                  John Barnes (Panther Racing) wants them.

                  To name a few.

                  Think any of the above have any influence?

                  Prepare yourself for the New World Order.
                  "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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                  • #10
                    The changes (or not) I can think of:

                    1. Current short oval wings would be fine on a road course.

                    2. Current gearbox would be just fine. So would the last one for that matter. The reason for all the gearbox failures in general is that people run three top gears on an oval, so you have huge splits in the first three gears, which is very stressful. On a road course, the gear splits would be much smaller. The internals of these boxes are essentially identical to what has been used in CART for a long time. The original Emco had a really balky linkage that would have been interesting on a road course, but the internals themselves would have been fine.

                    3. I actually think these engines would be pretty decent on a road course. They have more power than most people seem to think (they're well above 650), and they still have a relatively long stroke, so the torque is pretty good. And the cars are now lighter than a CART car, although the CoG is an inch or two higher. You're not going to see that in the stands.

                    4. People had been running tiny little brakes to keep the weight down, until they realized that being able to stop in a hurry for the pits is a good thing, so they have since gone back to more reasonable brakes. Not as big as what you would normally use on a road course, but that's probably not a bad thing. I would consider mandating a spec caliper to be used on both ovals and RCs. The carbon rotors are pretty cheap now, and they last a lot longer than steel. You'll need bigger brake ducts.

                    5. The uprights will have to change for camber reasons, and the suspension geometry used on an oval would suck on a road course.

                    6. Springs, shocks and ARBs would change, but no new parts should be required.

                    7. Bigger radiators for sure. The current cars can have tiny radiators because they are running at a constant high speed. The IRL should require the same radiators be used on both ovals and RCs.

                    8. You'll need a diff instead of the current spool. Make it spec if you like.

                    That's all I can think of. Overall, the only thing that really has to be different is the suspension, everything else can be made to work on both types of track. The total cost increase really shouldn't be that much.

                    Edit:

                    9. New refueling equipment. On this chassis, refueling on the right hand side can only be done with single-point (combined fill and vent) fueling rigs. And I'm not totally sure those will even fit in the hole that exists on the RHS. They should have thought this out better in the last off-season, but they really didn't want to make it look like they were getting ready for road courses.

                    10. New fuel cells probably. The baffling isn't designed for left-right direction changes, and the single-point receiver may require a different flange.
                    Last edited by Scott Bennett; 07-29-2003, 03:27 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Thanks Scott
                      Life's too short to worry/Life's too long to wait
                      Too short not to love everybody/Life's too long to hate

                      "There are a number of very knowledgeable and entertaining race fans here. There are also a number of morons. Your job is to figure out which is which." - Rev-Ed

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Scott Bennett
                        The changes (or not) I can think of:

                        1. Current short oval wings would be fine on a road course.

                        2. Current gearbox would be just fine. So would the last one for that matter. The reason for all the gearbox failures in general is that people run three top gears on an oval, so you have huge splits in the first three gears, which is very stressful. On a road course, the gear splits would be much smaller. The internals of these boxes are essentially identical to what has been used in CART for a long time. The original Emco had a really balky linkage that would have been interesting on a road course, but the internals themselves would have been fine.

                        3. I actually think these engines would be pretty decent on a road course. They have more power than most people seem to think (they're well above 650), and they still have a relatively long stroke, so the torque is pretty good. And the cars are now lighter than a CART car, although the CoG is an inch or two higher. You're not going to see that in the stands.

                        4. People had been running tiny little brakes to keep the weight down, until they realized that being able to stop in a hurry for the pits is a good thing, so they have since gone back to more reasonable brakes. Not as big as what you would normally use on a road course, but that's probably not a bad thing. I would consider mandating a spec caliper to be used on both ovals and RCs. The carbon rotors are pretty cheap now, and they last a lot longer than steel. You'll need bigger brake ducts.
                        ...
                        I have my doubts about the gearbox and the wings, but you appear to have this down so I'll pass on those. The engines too, since the new Chevy would've practically been built with this information in hand already. I don't believe they'll have as much torque as you say though, but that's not anything that can't be adjusted quickly.

                        On the brakes, aren't they cheap currently because the cars hardly use them, so they last a long while ?? Once you run around RA or MO (especially MO), you'll go through quite a number of pair before all is said and done.

                        Still thanks for the info, if you have any dollar figures that would be nice to learn as well.
                        "Don't believe the hype!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You would not believe the OEM prices for brakes. The brakes we were going to supply (very good calipers from a high-end company, not something that teams would have thrown away after taking delivery of the car) cost less than the brakes for my street car. That is not an exaggeration, and I don't drive a particularly exotic car. If you mandated a spec caliper (a move F1 is considering), the prices could be lower still. This stuff isn't spaceflight hardware.

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                          • #14
                            Spike,
                            Penske has said he does not want many. John Barnes said that IF CART folded, that the IRL had an obligation to the fans at those venues to run a few of the courses. I don't think he said he wanted to add them just because. But most of those other folks you list, as far as I know, are in favor of adding a few of them (George and Barnhart, in particular).
                            One driver's "fuel strategy" is another driver's "speed up or we will park you!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BlueStang
                              Spike,
                              ... John Barnes said that IF CART folded, that the IRL had an obligation to the fans at those venues to run a few of the courses. I don't think he said he wanted to add them just because. ....

                              Sorry, BlueStang. It seems like it is "just because."

                              While Barnes did say if CART folded the IRL should race at Long Beach and Toronto he is clearly in support of adding road races to the IRL schedule even if CART is still around. He said the IRL needs "diversity" and that road racing would be "great."

                              In the ESPN article the following appeared:

                              Panther Racing co-owner John Barnes, who heads a homegrown IRL operation, also supports the IRL's decision to add road course racing to its mix.

                              "I think that would be great," Barnes said. "This series needs diversity, and two road course races a year would be incredible, especially if they are great venues like Toronto and Long Beach.
                              "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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