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  • St Pete additional races

    Any idea what GT4 or TC Americas cars are and how different they are from what has been ran at St Pete the past few years.

  • #2
    https://world-challenge.com/competit...championships/
    "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by bbaker View Post
      Any idea what GT4 or TC Americas cars are and how different they are from what has been ran at St Pete the past few years.
      I'm believing that this is the same series that ran here last year. Formerly Pirelli World Challenge, but they are under several different badges now.

      The odd part is, St Petersburg is not listed as a race on any of the GT4 or TC Americas schedules.

      I'm hoping this doesn't mean they are not attending, I know they moved away from a few VICS events last year late in the season.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by bbaker View Post
        Any idea what GT4 or TC Americas cars are and how different they are from what has been ran at St Pete the past few years.
        I stand corrected on that, it looks like this is only 2 of the 3 legs of the full series, as World Challenge will not be competing in St Petersburg.

        Only the GT cars and TC cars this year.

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        • #5
          Short version.
          The SRO SRO Motorsports Group took a controlling interest in World Challenge parent WC Vision World Challenge It's now the BLANCPAIN GT WORLD CHALLENGE AMERICA. GT is now It's changed up to be in line with the European GT3 SRO championship.
          WC GTS is now PIRELLI GT4 AMERICA and WC TC is now TC AMERICA with 3 classes (TCR, TC, TCA). TCR is now the same as the Euro TCR cars (FWD Golf, S3, Veloster).
          I believe WC Vision is still administering GT4 and TCR.

          In St Pete, only the GT4 series and TCR series will compete. GT World Challenge is not.
          Both have races on Sat and Sun

          BTW, also on the supporting cast is Indy Lights, Indy Pro 2000 and US F2000.
          USF2000 and Indy Pro 2000 have races on Fri and Sat. Indy Lights race Sat and Sun.
          BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Fletnj01 View Post
            I stand corrected on that, it looks like this is only 2 of the 3 legs of the full series, as World Challenge will not be competing in St Petersburg.

            Only the GT cars and TC cars this year.
            It did not seem very clear to me either, and I had to look at a couple of different areas on the PWC site. Understanding the difference between GTS and GT4, and between GT and GT3 is a challenge for me. Factor in the A classes, and I am totally lost.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by bbaker View Post
              It did not seem very clear to me either, and I had to look at a couple of different areas on the PWC site. Understanding the difference between GTS and GT4, and between GT and GT3 is a challenge for me. Factor in the A classes, and I am totally lost.
              To be honest, I’ve been lost in several events PWC has been apart of previously. It’s always been a bit confusing to me, but that doesn’t stop us from drawing numbers from a hat, $10 a car to give us someone to cheer for haha.

              Anyone who is attending, more than happy to meet up and get in the pool. Not sure how much clarity I can provide on classes, but always happy to grow the pot!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by bbaker View Post
                It did not seem very clear to me either, and I had to look at a couple of different areas on the PWC site. Understanding the difference between GTS and GT4, and between GT and GT3 is a challenge for me. Factor in the A classes, and I am totally lost.
                Yeah, to some extent the takeover by SRO has resulted in rather crowded GT3 podiums with all the subclasses. Pro/Pro, Pro/Am, Am/Am....
                The SRO approach is to have the participants be the major funding source for the series (i.e. attendance at an event is not necessary).

                Last weekend's event at COTA:
                GT3: with 20 starters, there were 9 who had podium finishes...
                Easier in GT4 as there's only Pro/Am and Am categories.
                BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

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                • #9
                  Basically the gist of it is that the majority of WC classes went from using their own rulebook to an FIA rulebook. Building your own car that is both safe and fast and easy for the league to manage has become burdensome and expensive. They've made the classes exclusively for manufacturer-produced turnkey race cars, which are easier to manage and generally less expensive to run.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by drdisque View Post
                    Basically the gist of it is that the majority of WC classes went from using their own rulebook to an FIA rulebook. Building your own car that is both safe and fast and easy for the league to manage has become burdensome and expensive. They've made the classes exclusively for manufacturer-produced turnkey race cars, which are easier to manage and generally less expensive to run.
                    I'd differ a bit with you. The 'factory' GT3 and GT4 cars are not necessarily less expensive than building your own. Figure at least $450K for the car, plus minimum $100K spares package. But they do come with factory support and are easier to get best performance out of them. And you're right that it's easier for the series to BoP the cars. Perhaps a little lower talent level for the crew as you don't really need fabricators and such to actually build/develop a car.

                    List prices as of around Nov 2018, along with lot's of info on GT3s. (though Porsche's GT3 offering seems to have gone up in price since this publishing).
                    https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/10...-gt3-race-car/

                    Among the biggest changes in the SRO takeover is concentration on multiple drivers in each race (Sprint-X). A team can bring in additional funds from that second arrive/drive drivers.

                    Personally, I bemoan the loss of true sprint racing. As a fan, I want to be able to cheer for A DRIVER, who wins/loses on his own. The 45 minute podium ceremonies for Pro/Pro, Pro/Am, Am/Am feel too much like participation trophies.

                    That said, at least the St Pete GT4 race doesn't include driver changes.
                    BTW, here's info on lineup for this weekend's GT4 race at St Pete.
                    https://sportscar365.com/sro/gt4-ame...er-at-st-pete/
                    BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jakester View Post
                      Short version.
                      The SRO SRO Motorsports Group took a controlling interest in World Challenge parent WC Vision World Challenge It's now the BLANCPAIN GT WORLD CHALLENGE AMERICA. GT is now It's changed up to be in line with the European GT3 SRO championship.
                      WC GTS is now PIRELLI GT4 AMERICA and WC TC is now TC AMERICA with 3 classes (TCR, TC, TCA). TCR is now the same as the Euro TCR cars (FWD Golf, S3, Veloster).
                      I believe WC Vision is still administering GT4 and TCR.

                      In St Pete, only the GT4 series and TCR series will compete. GT World Challenge is not.
                      Both have races on Sat and Sun
                      I am sure this makes sense to someone. I have been trying to figure out sportscar racing since JPM and Helio went over. I think I get the main IMSA classes DPi, GTLM and GT. After that I can't figure out how they all fit together.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Outlaw View Post
                        I am sure this makes sense to someone. I have been trying to figure out sportscar racing since JPM and Helio went over. I think I get the main IMSA classes DPi, GTLM and GT. After that I can't figure out how they all fit together.
                        World Challenge alphabet soup makes the Saturday mains at the Chili Bowl look like nothing
                        "He went into a tire barrier, which is certainly the nicest of all the barriers." -Bobby Unser, Denver '90

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Outlaw View Post
                          I am sure this makes sense to someone. I have been trying to figure out sportscar racing since JPM and Helio went over. I think I get the main IMSA classes DPi, GTLM and GT. After that I can't figure out how they all fit together.
                          After that they largely don't necessarily fit together. Blancpain (SRO) are basically three levels of customer car teams with a variety of driver skill at each level. GT3, GT4 and Touring cars that are all available directly from the manufacturer and production based. Basically rich guys, some professional drivers, buying factory built race cars competing in a packaged racing series. Some of the IMSA GT and GTLM cars may be GT3 based but many are purpose built race cars.

                          When I read this it makes it sound like I'm joining the local kart track or mega gym.

                          https://files.world-challenge.com/re...acerSelect.pdf


                          GT3 vs GT4 vs TC(touring car)
                          https://racer.com/2018/04/03/comparing-gt3-gt4-and-tcr/

                          GT4 are essentially homologated track day type cars with little modification allowed. TCA are front wheel drive smaller cars.
                          Last edited by Nigel Red5; 03-06-2019, 11:16 AM.

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                          • #14
                            For those confuse about North American Sports car racing there’s not surprise. But you think it’s bad here, Europe has even more different championships racing similar/same cars often with different series on the same weekend. Here’s Adrian’s no guarantee of accuracy guide to Sports car and GT racing in the US to try and help, but possibly hinder you.

                            IMSA – Weather Tech SportCar Championship. Note, these are the classes that run the Daytona 24 hours etc.

                            Daytona Prototype International (DPI). This is the fastest class and is an IMSA class that uses LMP2 Chassis (see below) but with more open aero and engine rules. This is an all Pro (gold rated driver) category. Entrants are either factory efforts or factory blessed. The cars have circa 600hp and weigh 2,050 lbs. Lap times around Daytona have only just eclipsed the old GTP cars from the early 09’s

                            LeMans Prototype 2 (LMP2)
                            . This is an FIA class that is common with ACO categories so race in WEC, ELMS, Asia LM series etc. This is a more spec class. The FIA awarded contracts to three manufacturers to make LMP2 cars. Dallara, Ligier and Oreca/Riley/Multimatic. The Dallara is by far the least competitive of the three significantly behind the pace of the others, but that appears to be an aero issue as the Cadillac use the Dallara chassis as the base for their DPI and they are very very successful. Within both the ACO/FIA and IMSA this is considered a Pro/Am class with at least one of the drivers having to be a Silver/Bronze rating (a short bit on driver rankings at the bottomed). The cars have the same 2,050lb weight limit as DPI but all use a spec Gibson 4L V8 engine making 600hp. At Daytona these cars are approx.. 2 seconds a lap slower than the DPI’s due to aero. Last year IMSA tried to combine the DPI and LMP2 classes into a single ‘Prototype’ class, but to try to keep them equal they BOP’d (Balance of Performance) the DPI’s down to the point they were no longer efficient and the LMP2’s still couldn’t keep up so they gave up and created two classes. Although a tick slower than DPI and far quicker than GTLM, the cars have a price cap of €483 (approx.. $550k USD)

                            GT LeMans (GTLM).
                            This is another FIA/ACO category; the rest of the world calls these cars ‘GTE’ or ‘LM GTE’. Over here in IMSA GTLM is a pro class with all pro drivers. Most are Factory entries (Ford, Corvette, and Porsche) although Risi Competizione are a private team. The cars can be thought of as similar to GT3 cars (see GTD or World Series) but to a higher spec. While the Ford GT is relatively close to stock, the others are way way developed. This is where the mid, as opposed to rear, engined 911 RSR races. I can’t give power or weight as every car is different and they are BOP’d to give similar performance. GTLM, although more expensive to run than LMP2 despite being 8-9 seconds slower than DPI’s and 6-7 seconds slower than LMP2. Cars can cost pushing $1m USD. While there are am categories in WEC and at LeMAns, this is very much a full pro class here. Again, although slower than LMP2, it’s almost as high profile as DPI

                            GT Daytona (GTD).
                            Another FIA recognized class. These are ‘stock’ GT3 cars as raced all around the world per the specs of Stephane Ratel and the SRO. This is very much a pro-am class and must have a silver or bronze rated driver. There’s a whole host of cars, Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, Corvette, Lamborghini, Lexus, Acura etc. Cars can cost $2-400K with a wide range. They are 3+ seconds slower than the GTLM cars thus nearly 12 seconds slower than the DPI’s. Massively successful formula around the globe and here in both IMSA and Blancpain World Series.



                            IMSA – Michelin Pilot Challenge.
                            Note, these cars do not run the 24 hour etc. although they do at times run at the same meeting. At Dayton for instance they had a 4 hour race on Saturday before the main event.

                            Grand Sport (GS)
                            - This is run to FIA/SRO GT4 regs. For more details see World Challenge below.

                            Touring Car (TCR)
                            - This is run to SRO TCR regs. For more details see World Challenge below.



                            Blancpain GT World Challenge America


                            GT Class
                            . These are SRO GT3 cars, exactly the same as the IMSA GTD cars and those raced around the world. Where it gets confusing is that within the GT class there are three subclasses based on the drivers. The cars are the same in all sub classes. They are All pro, Pro/Am and all Amature. Hence the comments up thread about almost as many podium finishers as cars. All these sub classes run on track at the same time.

                            GT4 America.
                            These are spec GT4 cars. Like GT3, GT4 is a class ‘owned’ and run by SRO. The cars can in some cases be the same basic model as raced in GT3 (Ferrari and Audi R8) but with less power, grip, aero and subsequently cost. There isn’t an all Pro sub class here, just Pro/Am and all Amature. There is further confusion in that there are also sub East coast and West coast series run in addition to the National class. As there is far more emphasis on the ‘Am’ these coast sub classes allow for reduced commitment and costs for gentleman drivers. Again all these sub classes run on track at the same time.

                            TC America (Touring Car America). Ready to get really confused on sub classing? These are all touring cars, or basically sedan/hatch based. The cars all come from Manufacturers as race ready cars. The top class is called TCR here and is a world wide class. These cars weigh 2,750lb’s and have around 360hp from 2.0L turbo engines. Next is ‘TC’ I think this is a North American only class. Cars are around 7 seconds a lap slower than the TC cars at COTA. Finally is TCA, these are much lower spec cars, closer to showroom stock. They have around 220hp and are a further 6ish seconds slower.


                            I am sure those who know more than me will point out inaccuracies and I welcome them to improve my knowledge.

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                            • #15
                              Way OT as only Pirelli GT4 America is running at St Petersburg.

                              FIA/WEC/ACO GTE Pro = IMSA GTLM.
                              Though IMSA is a bit more permissive, the previous BMW M6 was a GT3 based machine (and thus not eligible for GTE Pro). The BMW M8 is a full fledged GTEPro/GTLM car.

                              FAI/WEC/ACO GTE Am = Last year's (or older) GTE Pro machines.
                              No corresponding IMSA class.

                              FIA/SRO/Various national series GT3 = IMSA GTD = Blancpain GT World Challenge America.
                              Same cars. IMSA's endurance style races mean higher running cost versus other series shorter races.

                              FIA/SRO/Various national Series GT4 = Pirelli GT4 America =IMSA MICHELIN PILOT CHALLENGE Grand Sport.
                              20 of these will be at St Pete.

                              FIA/Various national series TCR = IMSA Michelin Pilot Challenge TCR = TCR America. Same cars.
                              As noted, the US series includes 'grandfathered' World Challenge TC and TCA in some race weekends. TCR are factory built, TC and TCA are built by teams.

                              And for grins:
                              FIA/WEC/ACO LMP1 = nothing else, WEC unique

                              IMSA DPi = nothing else. LMP2 chassis, manufacturer styling cues and engines.

                              FIA/WEC/ACO/Various national "Le Mans" series LMP2 = IMSA LMP2
                              Spec engine. WEC runs LMP2 with LMP1 (and GTEPro/GTEAm).

                              FIA/WEC/ACO/Various national series LMP3 = IMSA Prototype Challenge
                              IMSA standalone race, some grandfathering of older prototype challenge cars. Most national series run both LMP2 and LMP3 in same races.


                              Really no different from the various Late Model, Limited Late Model, Late Model Stock, Crate Late Model... (IMCA, UMP, WOO, SAS, MARS, MLRA, ULMA, ASA, CRA, USAR, etc.)
                              BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

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