DW12 vs F1 Car

[Hitokiri]

I might be opening up a can of worms but...

My bud just sent me an email which linked me to an article on Racer.com.

http://www.racer.com/insight-plumbing-the-depths-of-f1s-changes-for-2014/article/327484/

My bud thought it was a very insight and informative article on the number of different changes the F1 teams will face in 2014. What interested my friend was the fact that the article states on the second page that the rules disallow exhaust blown diffusers which by the author's estimates could cost the F1 cars up to two seconds a lap. The weight of the car is also up nearly 100 lbs bringing it to 1521 lbs (1415 last year) and the engine itself well only make 600 horsepower with a 160 HP boost from the ERS (Energy Recovery Systems).

If you compare this to a DW12. The DW12 weighs about 1565 lbs and according to Will Power the Chevy engine makes close to 800 HP now.

I know that F1 has all the technology advances but when you compare the weight and power ratios it favors the DW12 even if it's only by a little. Plus if the article is right and the F1 cars do lose 2 seconds a lap due to the rules I think the DW12 might be closer to F1 car speeds on road courses then we think. I'm not saying it would be side by side banging wheels with one another but the gap is closing which sort of makes me proud as an Indycar fan.

F1 Fanatic: "Yeah...but you're still watching a spec series..."
Hitokiri: *frowns*

[AGRiculture]

If I'm not mistaken, the weight of an F1 car has always included the driver(which is why they weigh in after the race), whereas Indy cars have always excluded the driver. So the Indycar is still close to two hundred pounds heavier, with maybe 40 additional horsepower.

[Hitokiri]

If I'm not mistaken, the weight of an F1 car has always included the driver(which is why they weigh in after the race)

Ah thanks! That does change things.

[Mikemat5150]

Some F1 fans on that site are nuts about the sport and take it to such an elitist level. The guy who runs the site, Keith, is actually a pretty big advocate for Indycar and does live chats and articles about it.

[ICS001]

Some F1 fans on that site are nuts about the sport and take it to such an elitist level. The guy who runs the site, Keith, is actually a pretty big advocate for Indycar and does live chats and articles about it.

I think the series is getting a bit more respect now, what with a bunch of talented European racers migrating to the ladder series and the likes of Sam Bird wanting to race in Indycar.

[Outlaw]

If I'm not mistaken, the weight of an F1 car has always included the driver(which is why they weigh in after the race), whereas Indy cars have always excluded the driver. So the Indycar is still close to two hundred pounds heavier, with maybe 40 additional horsepower.

How much does HP does Push to Pass add? If it is getting close could IndyCar increase boost to make them more powerful on the road courses or would that just blow all of the engines>

[Heath Hamilton]

Yeah well, every team designs and manufactures their own car. Thats a big difference. And on tv even the slowest F1 dog looks faster than a DW12. You cannot deny that ugly or not the F1 cars look like functional purpose built racers and the DW12 looks like a cartoonish club racer.

[11rowsof3]

Sooo... you're saying they are trying to ruin F1 as well?

[Luy]

You cannot deny that ugly or not the F1 cars look like functional purpose built racers and the DW12 looks like a cartoonish club racer.

I can and do.

[Buellboy]

Yeah well, every team designs and manufactures their own car. Thats a big difference. And on tv even the slowest F1 dog looks faster than a DW12. You cannot deny that ugly or not the F1 cars look like functional purpose built racers and the DW12 looks like a cartoonish club racer.

I can deny it. I like the DW-12 and the way it races.

[indycarbear]

14.3.1.1.1. Minimum weight for Road/Streets &
Short Ovals – will be 1600 pounds.
14.3.1.1.2. Minimum weight for Speedways – will
be 1570 pounds

As for the claim of 800 bhp, that is simply not the case, not even with push to pass or the increased boost for Indy qualifying.

The combined power output from the 2014 F1 cars will be about 760bhp with the mgu-h/kers/ers systems engaged. The base numbers of both cars are somewhat similar but then begin to consider the differences. A current F1 car can sprint from 0-120 in under 4 seconds.

Firestone tires versus Pirelli. A current Indycar driver was heard to have said at Mid Ohio that the Firestones were some of the worst tires he had ever driven on. The F1 paddock is not a fan of Pirelli mixing up the compounds either but they do have more overall grip.

Brakes, off the shelf Brembo versus bespoke. This is one of the biggest performance differences and one where the Indycar is light years behind, the Brembo brakes on the current Indycar are simply not good (due to the series asking Brembo to make a brake that would last an entire season....new RC pads and rotors for 2014.). A current F1 car can decelerate upwards of 4g.

CoG, night and day. Everything on an F1 car is packed as low and close to centerline as possible and made from "exotic" (expensive) materials to save weight. There were F1 teams that used machined Titanium roll hoop structures whereas the Indycar has a fabricated steel tube rollover structure.

Gearbox, not that the Indycar gearbox is not good, it is reliable but it weighs quite a bit just by itself, F1 has carbon gearboxes with much lighter internals and sometimes an incorporated carbon bellhousing. Seamless shifting in F1, not so in Indycar and that is worth quite a bit of time.

Fuel, F1 is mandated to use a specific amount of fuel for a full race distance without fueling versus in race fueling for Indycar so a 3 second stop versus about 8 seconds for a full fill stop.

It would be a bit embarrassing to put an F1 and Indycar on the same track at the same time sans superspeedway. I do not think a current Indycar could lap faster than a GP2 car at that.

[rrrr]

It would be a bit embarrassing to put an F1 and Indycar on the same track at the same time sans superspeedway. I do not think a current Indycar could lap faster than a GP2 car at that.

I don't get why comparisons of any series vs. another are "embarrassing". They aren't built with the other series considered as design criteria. No one should care. I sure don't. The endless tit-for-tat discussions on internet message boards serves no purpose at all.

Pages of "Yeah, but...".

What a waste of time.

[ICS001]

14.3.1.1.1. Minimum weight for Road/Streets &
Short Ovals – will be 1600 pounds.
14.3.1.1.2. Minimum weight for Speedways – will
be 1570 pounds

As for the claim of 800 bhp, that is simply not the case, not even with push to pass or the increased boost for Indy qualifying.

That's not a reference to the 2013 spec.

The combined power output from the 2014 F1 cars will be about 760bhp with the mgu-h/kers/ers systems engaged. The base numbers of both cars are somewhat similar but then begin to consider the differences. A current F1 car can sprint from 0-120 in under 4 seconds.

The Indycar has to survive oval crashes, so it's obviously going to have a weight disadvantage. Since when were Indycars historically at the same pace as F1? Different rulesets, much lower budgets etc.

Firestone tires versus Pirelli. A current Indycar driver was heard to have said at Mid Ohio that the Firestones were some of the worst tires he had ever driven on. The F1 paddock is not a fan of Pirelli mixing up the compounds either but they do have more overall grip.

Who? Got a source for this assertion?

It would be a bit embarrassing to put an F1 and Indycar on the same track at the same time sans superspeedway. I do not think a current Indycar could lap faster than a GP2 car at that.

Already addressed this general point. I don't see the need to try to clone F1, and I certainly don't expect the same road course performance when the budgets are 10% of the F1 equivalent.

[indycarbear]

No it is not a reference to 2013, that is the updated 2014 rulebook.

The driver in question is a friend of mine and I do not wish to divulge his name, he has driven on plenty of different brands in quick machinery though.

[ICS001]

No it is not a reference to 2013, that is the updated 2014 rulebook.

I haven't seen the 2014 rulebook yet. The 800hp is what Will Power was quoted as stating during post-season testing.

The driver in question is a friend of mine and I do not wish to divulge his name, he has driven on plenty of different brands in quick machinery though.

Why should I take your word for it?

You do realise Firestone is essentially the US arm of Bridgestone right? The same company that helped Ferrari\MS dominate the 2002 and 2004 seasons in F1. Pirelli vs Bridgestone in terms of durability and reliability is no contest. The fact that Pirelli can't produce a racy tyre that doesn't spontaneously disintegrate and\or last for more than a few laps is damning, regardless of the gimmicky route the FIA have taken with the ruleset.