Why does amount of horsepower matter...?

[FTHurley]

I think we need to find a new way to describe the speed, quickness, and agility superiority IndyCar will have over Cup cars.

Oh, that one's easy! Our guys go 230 mph and could lap the entire Cup field at Daytona shockingly fast. There, done.

[vintage]

I know. Anyone who passed senior year physics is more concerned with power to weight ratio. Didn't take a thread to know that.

Oh, that's not what you meant?

The Delta Wang was not going to have the same power to weight ratio as a current car would have with 900 hp. Bowlby can say whatever he wants about the car's acceleration - until he puts one on the track it's all bs, and anyway, we're looking for MORE acceleration on road courses. Bowlby was selling his product - you think he was going to say it would be less exciting?

Go figure out what a car would have to weigh with the 400 hp engine to perform like the current car with 900. Then figure out how to package an engine, transmission, driver, and all auxillary components into a safety cell that would meet all the current safety parameters for crashes on an oval in a 800 lb package (or whatever)

It's complicated, no? I'm not troubled by restricting horsepower to some degree on ovals to control top speeds, but I agree with Gil that on road courses the cars should be beasts.

On the subject of emphasizing the speed, I think the networks should show an overlay of an IndyCar and a stock car at Indy. The IndyCar could start the lap whatever amount it could make up in one lap and then beat the cab to the finish line. Or send someone out in a stock car and have an IndyCar go by on the outside in turn one. There are so many possibilities!

[Mike Kellner]

On the subject of emphasizing the speed, I think the networks should show an overlay of an IndyCar and a stock car at Indy. The IndyCar could start the lap whatever amount it could make up in one lap and then beat the cab to the finish line. Or send someone out in a stock car and have an IndyCar go by on the outside in turn one. There are so many possibilities!

I know NASCAR would never take part in something like this, but many years ago Niki Lauda did a demo with a McLaren GP car, a Porsche 928, and some little Euro-Ford. Niki stood there, drinking coffee, the little Ford launched, he finished his coffee, the Porsche launched as he was buckling into the McLaren, fired it up and launched after them. I think it was at Silverstone, but I could be wrong on that. About the time the Porsche caught the Ford he passed both of them like they were standing still before one lap was complete.

You could do it any number of ways, by having them both behind a pace car and green flag them and see how long it took the Indycar to lap the Cup Car. The advantage would be the lowest at Indy, and max at Watkin's Glen or Sonoma. You could do a video overlay of pole laps at Indy to show the difference. A drag race would be enlightening as well.

The current cars may look cleaner as they run than the old cars, but they are not slow by any measure. In any modern formula car set up for road racing, you will only get wheel spin at low speeds, and that slows you down and toasts your tires, so drivers try to avoid it.

My own feeling is that the cars are plenty fast, but we need to do a better job of marketing the speed so people understand. We need to give more rides in the two seater to celebrities on street courses to let them understand how fast the cars are, and use them to get the word out. I hope a few two seat chassis of the new cars are being built. Each engine maker should have one at every race. They are wonderful promotion tools. And they are a way to bring back old heroes to drive them. I hope they make them with enough driver's seat room for AJ. Maybe Rick and the Unser Bros could take a few rubes for spins as well.

mk

[numetalbizkit]

Horsepower is semi important, as is weight. But Horsepower-to-weight is the most important aspect for making a race car go quickly.

[christcc2]

...Ya carties had it..

Ya carties?????? Oh geez.

[use2know]

many years ago Niki Lauda did a demo with a McLaren GP car, a Porsche 928, and some little Euro-Ford. Niki stood there, drinking coffee, the little Ford launched, he finished his coffee, the Porsche launched as he was buckling into the McLaren, fired it up and launched after them. I think it was at Silverstone, but I could be wrong on that. About the time the Porsche caught the Ford he passed both of them like they were standing still before one lap was complete.mk

Brings back memories of a great Honda promo tape that was sent out to their motorcycle dealers in the mid-80's... Laguna Seca with a street car vs. street bike vs. 500cc GP with Freddie Spencer on board...:

Yep... it's dated, but it never gets old...

[use2know]

On the subject of HP... Use the current state of MotoGP as a measuring stick. To quote Rossi, “The 800s are the biggest mistake in 15 years.”... and that's all due to the lack of HP. A 'neutered' machine that all but eliminated the sliding and spinning that I personally believe helps showcase a racer's true level of control.

To quote another line from a recent article, "The best racing is produced when there is more power than traction..."

Speed Link

I know it's about 2-wheel competition, but I believe that many of the same thoughts carry over well to this discussion. It's worth a read.

[rrrr]

A Prius can go 100 MPH.

[Jakester]

tend to be more impressed with technology that can get a 400 hp engine to power an Indycar @ 230 mph rather than some overblown 1000 hp engine powering the same car to the same speed

It's not about top speed (heck, previous stock cars at Daytona choked down to 400 hp in a 3500 pound car ran 190 mph...but took more than a full lap to get to speed.). It's about how fast you get there. Handling 400 hp off a slow corner is not RACECAR DRIVER challenging. Handling 800+ HP is.

[Rosco]

The best way to control speeds is to get the driver to hit the brakes. If you just keep taking horsepower out of the cars after a while you end up with something milkas mother can drive

You hit the nail on the head, more HP, narrow the tires, then let'em race.

[Cygni]

HP matters because it matters to the public... who wants to pay $100 to see cars with nearly the same power as the one I drive everyday? 350+hp cars are EVERYWHERE. A 550hp mustang is $53k.

HP matters because its matters to the drivers, who want to drive in a series that pushes their ability. The ability to modulate and control beastly cars turns a driver on as much as anyone.

HP matters because it matters to the engine builders and manufacturers, who want to show to the public that they can build monster beasts of engines, to sell cars.

HP matters because it matters to the fans, who want to see powerful, hard to control cars powering through corners. Pushing the limits of man and machine.

HP matters because this is racing, goddamnit. Not a high school dance.

[Mike Kellner]

The reason Moto GP racing is so good is exactly because they do not have aero downforce. That means they can run close in turns and not lose grip. Having a vehicle that is only 2 feet wide helps a lot too. One of the things that limits passing is marbles off line. Above someone mentioned softer tires that need management as a possible improvement, but that brings with it more marbles, which are quite bad now.

The new cars are going to be lighter and more powerful. If I did my math right and my assumptions were correct, we should have about 2.4 lb/hp with half a tank of gas. That is not a low power car. That is like 50% more power per pound than a liter sport bike, and about 20% better than the current car, which at 2.8 lb/hp is not exactly something you'd really want Grandma Montoya driving. (Of course, I never saw the old gal drive, and JPM must have gotten his genes from somewhere. She could be the little old lady from Cartegena. I mean, who knows.)

mk

[Rosco]

SPEED: What have your SIM tests shown?
BOWLBY: “What we’ve found is that we have better acceleration because of the dragster like layout and low drag and weight. We’ve also got better stability under braking because we can keep more of the braking on the rear wheels behind the center of gravity. The drive-ability envelope has been expanded. Our simulations show it’s going to be a lot of fun to drive. We have targeted maintaining aerodynamic performance at high yaw angles so that drivers can recover from over-cooking it.”

SPEED: Will it be harder to drive, hopefully?
BOWLBY: “It’s going to make the performance envelope bigger so bolder drivers can use more track.”


Source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-wing-project/




Has Tony Cotman made any similiar statements about the 2012 formula?

If this would have been the new car, we would still be running the 2002 chassis in 2013

[gonzo]

I'm not sure this is actually correct in the universe in which most of us live. If 1000 hp breaks the tires loose in a 1500 lb car, then sure, maybe 650 hp won't do the same thing in that car. But we're not limited to that car. This is all in the context of a new car. And you can light the tires up in a 1000 lb. car with a hell of a lot less than 1000 hp.

The other thing about higher speed is that it shortens the straights, giving even fewer places and less time to pass. Great, even less passing. But they sure are screamin'!

Go drive a Viper, then go drive a 350Z. You can break 'em both loose but one is a hell of a lot easier then the other to do it to.

[xorpheous]

To quote another line from a recent article, "The best racing is produced when there is more power than traction..."

THAT'S when you separate genuine racers from the gentlemen/lady racers! P:W is important, but if you've always got grip, then you lose some of the important requirements of a genuinely talented racer, and that's being able to manage your throttle well enough to avoid excessive wheelspin.