Why does amount of horsepower matter...?

[damilt]

I see a lot of people on here bemoaning the lack of horse power in the current series. Why does horse power matter? I tend to be more impressed with technology that can get a 400 hp engine to power an Indycar @ 230 mph rather than some overblown 1000 hp engine powering the same car to the same speed....

[IndycarAddictus]

You need to have seen one of the old 900hp beasts come of the corner on a road course and then watch the current car do the same thing. The current version is a bit of pig coming out of the corners, it just is not the same:mercy: Horsepower and the need for the driver to control it without burning off the tires is one of the things that separates the great drivers from the rest of the pack.

[Defender]

Won't turbos help in that regard?

I see a lot of people on here bemoaning the lack of horse power in the current series. Why does horse power matter? I tend to be more impressed with technology that can get a 400 hp engine to power an Indycar @ 230 mph rather than some overblown 1000 hp engine powering the same car to the same speed....

I was thinking the same thing. That is one reason why I did not participate in that poll. Over the years I have always been amazed at how speeds have been brought down by legislative means, then engineers figure out how to get speeds back up within rules. Fascinating. I suspect that will happen again.

-The Size Only Matters in Stag Films Disciple of INDYCAR

[IndycarAddictus]

The best way to control speeds is to get the driver to hit the brakes. If you just keep taking horsepower out of the cars after a while you end up with something milkas mother can drive

[Darth Airbox]

You need to have seen one of the old 900hp beasts come of the corner on a road course and then watch the current car do the same thing. The current version is a bit of pig coming out of the corners, it just is not the same:mercy: Horsepower and the need for the driver to control it without burning off the tires is one of the things that separates the great drivers from the rest of the pack.

This is a matter of power to weight instead of total horse power. If you can can get the same power to weight, you will see the same thing off the corners. The current car is 'heavy' and 'underpowered'. The new car will be lighter and have more power.

[Mike Kellner]

Just my opinion, and no disparagement of those who want it intended, but...

I believe they feel that if they got 1000 HP cars, it would somehow return us to the golden era of turbo Offys and the races they remember as the best ever. And it is also seen as a way to make the cars so hard to drive it will drive all the low talent poseurs from the sport. But, IIRC, the Whittington Brothers were at Indy in the Turbo Offy era, yet is was Kevin Cogan who crashed the start in a Penske he had put on the front row. Jackie Stewart said it looked to him like Cogan just lost it when the tires lit up.

The problem is, unless you also return to the low tech, dangerous cars of the era, you won't recreate anything. Put 900 or 1000 HP in a modern car and dial back the DF, you will just have a really fast formula car that will lap Indy in the 250s, and less passing than ever on road courses.

I think high speeds would be way cool, and attract a lot of attention, but apparently that is not in the cards. We have to keep speeds in the 225 range at Indy and slower on other speedways to keep Indy the fastest. Given those constraints, you have to find a way to improve the racing. I'd love to see a zero downforce car, but that isn't going to happen. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. All that is left is to find a way to improve overtaking abilities on the current cars and live with the defacto speed limits. My proposal for that is in the how much power should an Indycar have thread.

http://www.trackforum.com/forums/showthread.php?146532-How-much-HP-and-aero-do-you-think-an-Indycar-should-have&p=2533604&viewfull=1#post2533604

Others' opinions will differ.

mk

[IndycarAddictus]

This is a matter of power to weight instead of total horse power. If you can can get the same power to weight, you will see the same thing off the corners. The current car is 'heavy' and 'underpowered'. The new car will be lighter and have more power.

Very true. The delta wing was taking that track but it was not well received by all. But in my opinion unless they get the cars back to where the driver has to manage the tires, they don't have enough horsepower. A lighter car with more horsepower will help, but they need to reduce the downforce a bit more, make it more of a challenge to drive. I know horsepower is not the only answer (less tire, less wing) but when stock street cars are approaching indycar horsepower specs, some of the wow factor just kind of slips away.

[Mr. Bean]

Come down to Long Beach and sit by the hair pin.

Mastering 950+ HP and handling all the weight in the turns and under breaking with no power steering or assists is what drew me to indycar.

Lighter car? Steering will be easier. Breaking zones will be way shorter.= less passing. So, now for that solution you would take away aero right? Now you have a car that handles worse, so lap speeds are slower and the overall performance of an Indycar is lower.

[IndycarAddictus]

Come down to Long Beach and sit by the hair pin.

To watch the old cars or the current cars? The old cars just kind of spoil it for you, don't they?

[BizzyV]

...

Agree with you on pretty much everything. Although I just wish that the default speed limits would be thrown out the window.

[icrackedtheaces]

Why does it matter? I'm sick of seeing foot mashed to the floor racing. I want the driver to become relevant again. I want to see people actually brake into a corner on a oval. I want to see which driver has the most brass by keeping their foot in it the longest. I want to see the car's rear end twitch and the driver have to manhandle the car to keep it straight and off the wall and other cars.

[Mr. Bean]

To watch the old cars or the current cars? The old cars just kind of spoil it for you, don't they?

Hate to tell you they stopped the historic F1 cars. So no more old cars. The current cars are fun to watch and you can see the driver struggle and hustle through T10 and then have to feather it off the hairpin.

[Mike Kellner]

The problem with lowering downforce is, the less DF you have the harder it becomes to follow close in a turn to set up a pass. If anyone remembers the failed CART experiment using small speedway wings on short flat ovals, you will see what I am talking about. The cars literally could not pass, it was so bad the leaders would get stuck behind the slowest cars, unable to lap them.

It is essential to allow teams to set the car up with the optimum amount of downforce for the track. Mandating too little increases the parade factor, mandating too much creates pack racing on ovals and allows wankers with large checks to pretend they are top league race car drivers.

mk

[IndycarAddictus]

That's true if all the grip is aero, but if there is more mechanical grip or if the cars are not "spec equal" things begin to change.

[gonzo]

I see a lot of people on here bemoaning the lack of horse power in the current series. Why does horse power matter? I tend to be more impressed with technology that can get a 400 hp engine to power an Indycar @ 230 mph rather than some overblown 1000 hp engine powering the same car to the same speed....

Is this an exercise in engineering or is it an exercise in competition?

I understand people's interest in the technical side and the engineering of it. Making an engine as efficient as possible holds a certain interest for me also but it is not why I watch the "sport" of motor racing. Racing is a sport, it is not a science fair.

And because it is a sport, it should involve a certain level of skill.

Learning to control a car that has more power then it has traction requires a great deal of skill, ability, and bravado. If you take away those elements, what do you have left? You have a sport that anybody could do.

I liken it to major league baseball. Imagine if you took the pitcher away and turned it into a t-ball game. You could take just about any player in the minor leagues and make them successful, and we all know that not everyone in the minor leagues has the skills to succeed in the bigs.

Horsepower matters, and more so the torque not so much because of top speeds, but because of acceleration. It then becomes about controlling that acceleration and having the skills and ability to use it.

Picture yourself driving past Princess Gate in Toronto, turn one, hard right hander, 1000 horsepower under your foot. If you mash it to hard, you spin the tires, put the car sideways and into the wall or a competitor. Do it to softly, and you'll find yourself in the back of the pack as the field blisters past you down the back stretch. So you try to find yourself that balance, meanwhile Andretti is beside you going through the corner sideways as he has pushed the limit almost past the point of adhesion but not quite.

Now, do it in a less powerful car, and you can all just mash the throttle and point the wheel and you all get through the corner equally.

You need look no further then lap times to see the differences in the two scenarios. Years ago there was a much greater difference in lap times. Now grant it, we had more then one tire, and many configurations on the track, but even if you looked at the times of the teammates, times were very different between drivers as compared to now. The skill has been removed, or at least greatly reduced.

You need that horsepower back to once again push those limits of adhesion. Over the last couple decades, engineers have found the ways to make the cars stick to the road better with the given power being used. They have done it mechanically through tire technology and suspension and they have done it aerodynamically with under trays and wings and trick aero bits.

If you are going to maintain the level of aero and mechanical technology that is being used or has been used you need to greatly increase the power so that it exceeds the level of adhesion that is being produced. This will in turn bring a drivers skill back to the forefront.

700 horsepower will not accomplish that. 800 horsepower will not accomplish that. You need to get up and past the levels that were used twenty years ago which were close to 1000.