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  • The "Fan" Debate

    We can't reverse time, but if we could, and could kill the Internet, I wonder where our favorite sport would be?

    One thing the Internet has made ridiculously easy to do is navel-gaze almost anything into paranoid extremes. TF alone has dozens of examples. It's not alone, almost any message board you go to has them.

    The question is, why do so many of us give in to it? There's no greater turn-off than weeping, wailing and gnashing teeth 24/7. It just makes people think there's something wrong with you to complain all the time. We know this from real life, don't we? And yet here, so many do it.

    "But it's not what it was!"--and what's your point? Nothing is what it was. That's called time passing. Happens to the best of us.

    "But it's going to die!"--and what's your point? Nothing is forever. If it won't change with the times it should die. So is the way of all business.

    "But they won't listen to us!"--and what's your point? People generally ignore whiners. They're irritating, and they get in the way of our doing something constructive.

    "But someone has to speak up!"--and what's your point? There's a difference between "speaking up" and [email protected] People who know how to speak up know it takes a lot more than just complaining to make a change happen.

    When people here post that the "fans" are the problem, what they're really saying is "Can you PLEASE do anything other than complain, or are you here just to take away my enjoyment of this?"

    It's obvious some of you are. The ones of you who are not--prove it. It's not that hard.
    "I didn't hear a single comment about airboxes, "carbashians", or how terrible the car looked. I did see dozens and dozens of little kids in awe of the speed and how cool the cars looked. We should learn from our children."
    --Danny Noonan

  • #2
    I am not really one to complain. I only complain about the complainers complaining.
    My deal is that there was nobody a bigger OW fan than me. Then bam, my favorite sport gets decimated by a stupid power grab by TG. That is my biggest complaint. Now I just want the series to be healthier.

    Comment


    • #3
      I have to admit that it is beginning to drive me away from both TF and IndyCar. Going to Petit LeMans reminded me that there is racing where the fans (124,000 of them at Petit) actually like the racing, the cars, the drivers and the series. It was quite refreshing.

      I still love IndyCar racing but the continuation of split politics 2 years after mergerfication and the constant wail of "they're not doing it the way I wanted it to be done" is wearing me down.
      Open the pod bay doors, HAL

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RS2 View Post
        My deal is that there was nobody a bigger OW fan than me. Then bam, my favorite sport gets decimated by a stupid power grab by TG. That is my biggest complaint. Now I just want the series to be healthier.
        I know how you feel. I wish it never happened. Unfortunately the effects of stupid decisions sometimes can't be undone. That is the hardest thing to stomach. I sincerely hope things turn around. I am not optimistic it will. I'll just enjoy the racing while I can.
        Indy, Cleveland, Mid-Ohio, Pocono, Michigan, Long Beach, Watkins Glen, Kentucky, Milwaukee, Road America, Iowa, Gateway, IRP - 70

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        • #5
          I love this sport and I skip over the "you said I said what?" posts. Even my very good friend who attends races with me but who complains about the road courses - I don't let his negative comments prevent me from enjoying all of it.

          I'm here for news and insight that I might miss elsewhere.
          "Indycars should be beasts." - Gil de Ferran
          @bigmo500

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          • #6
            People always overstate the weight of Internet fans.

            There might be 20,000 people total who read IndyCar forums, etc at some point during the year, and that's probably on the high side.

            I know nearly everyone is finally on the Internet now in 2010, but you're still looking at a tiny portion of the fanbase who actually care enough to get on a web forum and discuss things.

            Comment


            • #7
              Provided the threads and posts don't degrade to a flame/troll fest I don't care what people post. Everything has it's extremists be it politics (look at your local election ads), gun control, gay rights, abortion rights, NFL fans, MLB fans, college sports rivalries, etc. It's that fringe that everyone seems to gravitate to as showing what's wrong with a situation instead of looking at what those who support the cause or situation but do it in a grown up, responsible manner.

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              • #8
                I'm going to save myself some time wasting and say this: I don't like complainers that don't offer some rational, reasonable and affordable solutions for moving forward into the future. But what I like less is the silence; silence from the people who used to be fans of the sport and from those who we need to become fans to make it grow.
                "You can't arrest those guys, they're folk heroes"
                "They're criminals"
                "Well most folk heroes started out as criminals"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Z28 View Post
                  ...But what I like less is the silence; silence from the people who used to be fans of the sport and from those who we need to become fans to make it grow.
                  Most are gone forever, whether they be original Indy Car fans still angry over Tony's power play, or early fans of the IRL who were betrayed by CART II, or CART fans who have given up on the new ICS ever achieving even a small part of the greatness that was CART at its peak.

                  Bernard's challenge is achieving real change for the better, despite the idiocy and the penny-pinching of the Hulman-George's, so that these fans will be encouraged to return. Because they are not coming back just because there's no more "IRL" -- they want to see real improvement.

                  But, regarding the complainers, you can be sure that behind every complainer stands a thousand disgruntled fans who simply walked away.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Internet is where everyone goes to complain about everything, it's not just special to IndyCar. Go to a NASCAR forum and it's no different than here. Same thing goes for F1. Heck, I am on a guitar forum and you wouldn't believe the amount of complaining you'll see about John Mayer and Gibson guitars.
                    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary… that's what gets you.

                    http://twitter.com/WhateverJoel

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Since83 View Post
                      I know how you feel. I wish it never happened. Unfortunately the effects of stupid decisions sometimes can't be undone. That is the hardest thing to stomach. I sincerely hope things turn around. I am not optimistic it will. I'll just enjoy the racing while I can.
                      ^ Those are my feelings also.

                      Originally posted by Fro View Post
                      People always overstate the weight of Internet fans.

                      There might be 20,000 people total who read IndyCar forums, etc at some point during the year, and that's probably on the high side.

                      I know nearly everyone is finally on the Internet now in 2010, but you're still looking at a tiny portion of the fanbase who actually care enough to get on a web forum and discuss things.
                      ^ I agree with this. I sincerely doubt the 4000 members of TF are single-handedly dragging the sport into ruin by posting negative stuff here, or at Speed, or whereever. Our collective negativity may indeed be a reflection of what the much greater fanbase is feeling, but because they don't post on Internet forums or even read them, we posters are not influencing other fans, not one iota. IMO.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by INDYINDY View Post
                        But, regarding the complainers, you can be sure that behind every complainer stands a thousand disgruntled fans who simply walked away.
                        How many fans does each less negative member represent?

                        An old rule of thumb in customer service is that a satisfied customer tells another person, but a dissatisfied one tells six.

                        People are far more likely to express complaints than they are satisfaction. The complaints get more fierce with anonymity. This is actually not a lot different than speaking to the fans on the street or in the stands.

                        Most of us probably just choose to be around less chronic complainers and more rational people So our personal experiences may vary, if we are not frequently talking to a large enough (and somewhat randomly anonymous) sample.

                        As for the bitter partisans - they definitely get to be fewer over time. We really need the trend to reverse, though, with those who do find value in the sport helping to encourage new fans and borderline ones to participate - in the stands, on TV, and most especially within their own social networks.

                        With the new management and the new sponsors, what we need most are more fans - that is really the only way to achieve all the other things the old veteran fans miss- whether that's talent, teams, specs, or venues.
                        Last edited by Turn13; 10-12-2010, 05:45 PM.
                        "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
                        ~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"


                        Brian's Wish

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RS2 View Post
                          I am not really one to complain. I only complain about the complainers complaining.
                          My deal is that there was nobody a bigger OW fan than me. Then bam, my favorite sport gets decimated by a stupid power grab by TG. That is my biggest complaint. Now I just want the series to be healthier.

                          I still love the sport but sure wish the those that formed CART hadn't forced TG's hand.
                          "There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt." John Adams 1826
                          Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
                          www.fairtax.org

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by brickyard1911 View Post
                            I still love the sport but sure wish the those that formed CART hadn't forced TG's hand.
                            Yeah well if TG would have just concerned himself with running the greatest race on earth and managing IMS instead of trying to be King Ruler of US OW racing then I guess things would have turned out better.

                            But enough of this moldy old argument.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I
                              Originally posted by RS2 View Post
                              Yeah well if TG would have just concerned himself with running the greatest race on earth and managing IMS instead of trying to be King Ruler of US OW racing then I guess things would have turned out better.

                              But enough of this moldy old argument.
                              I am pretty sure this thread was meant to avoid comments just like this one.

                              Getting to the topic, no one likes to be labeled a complainer. However, I might ask if negative comments are mostly spurned from uncertainty. If the sport was vibrant and the web page was loaded with action to talk about, I believe a lot of the petty stuff would fall by the wayside. So that is my statement answer to the rhetorical question of complaining on trackforum. Another thing I will add is that there is clearly an unhealthy opposition that may simply be too pure to ignore. You have the oval-centric american grass roots older crowd and you have the international is best, diveristy for all (tracks, drivers, engines, team budgets) types perhaps a younger group overall. This is a bi-modal distribution of fans. It makes it very difficult for things to move in a way that is appealing to" most" if you only anger one of the two modes with every turn.
                              Lastly ill say that complaining is a somewhat reasonable response to poor judgement made by "those in charge". It always accomplishes one goal-namely, notifying those in charge that things are not good. It certainly worked with the deltawing. If not for complainers, that car might be our next indycar right now!

                              The other thing about complainers- they may simply be perfectionists. If perfectionists are handed the reins, great things can happen. Those who practice" good enough" are generally not bold innovators but often race their way into leadership positions. Not saying randy is one of those, but I am sticking up for a healthy dose of complaining. (At least the side of the argument that agrees with me!)
                              just some thoughts. Great topic.

                              Comment

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