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  • Cygni
    Moderate Troll
    • Dec 2002
    • 9174

    #76
    Originally posted by Hardscrabble View Post
    Actually, that would be the Tony Stewart/Billy Boat/Donnie Beechler/Jack Hewitt/Steve Kinser era...
    That... kinda proves my point. TStew went on to big bucks and fame in NASCAR, Kinser never had any luck or opportunities and gave up, and Boat/Beechler went by the wayside when the talent came back.

    Comment

    • AFColt
      Insider
      • May 2009
      • 4960

      #77
      Summerton seems like a truly nice guy. He's an optimist, but in the silly season, what potential IndyCar driver isn't, aside from a few cynical vets?
      IndyCar Advocate: A blog about enjoying the best sport in the world! Stop on by!
      --
      On Twitter as @indycaradvocate

      Comment

      • Professor Joe
        Thread Killer
        • Aug 2000
        • 2798

        #78
        I'm surprised I have been able to stay out of this discussion. Approaching mid-terms must have kept me busy!

        Originally posted by BSJracing View Post
        Am I less of a race fan because I didn't really take the time to follow Thunder? Sorry but the Sprints/Midgets just don't do it for me on TV. I was too busy at the time following SCCA racing as I was somewhat actively involved in it.
        No, you are not less of a race fan. But, for years Indy car has wanted the loyalty of the short-track fan without in return respecting that part of the American grass-roots racing scene. Traditional professional oval racing still greatly outnumbers the road-racing series both in numbers of total participants and numbers of loyal, paying fans. To separate the Indy car series from both the deeper talent pool and the loyal fans of that pool while still expecting those fans to remain of Indy car racing never made sense from any sort of business perspective. Traditional oval-racing fans like me are not belittling road-racing fans, but we are tired of feeling like our preferred part of the sport is being belittled as well.

        Originally posted by free2game View Post
        I think the focus should be getting American drivers through the modern open wheel ladder, not the USAC. the USAC is too antiquated to produce many good modern open wheel drivers and it only really promotes drivers from the midwest and maybe parts of the South.
        I can't disagree with this, but the "modern" open wheel ladder is not set up to be a meritocracy that truly forces talent to compete to rise to the top. They don't race often enough to become truly race-seasoned, their advance is predicated as much (or more) on their ability to fund-raise as it is on their on-track performance. As a result, they can't consistently compete with the drivers coming from better-developed international developmental series. Until the "modern open wheel ladder" matures into truly professional racing, Indy car needs to look where the American talent is currently racing and not just where it wishes the talent would race. You are right, USAC does have a midwest bias. That just argues that Indy car needs to look EVERYWHERE that young Americans are racing in its search for talent.

        Originally posted by Cygni View Post
        Honest question: Does anyone racing in USAC really give a crap about IndyCar?

        Honestly, are there any young drivers in USAC who even want to race in IndyCar? Are there any young drivers who see IndyCar as the end goal AT ALL? Because even at the kart tracks, the kids want to go to F1 or NASCAR.

        And what exactly does this USAC partnership do when the kid still has to come up with $3 million in personal money to have any shot at an IndyCar ride?
        That is an interesting question. Did the current group of young USAC drivers enter USAC racing realistically thinking about a future career in Indy cars - probably not. But, they are professional race drivers that want to make a living driving race cars. If the professional opportunity comes along to make a better living driving race cars, many certainly will jump at it. But, that gets to the last part of your comment - is Indy car a truly professional race series looking to employ professional race car drivers or is it some glorified version of the Indy Racing Experience that just has a larger fee to buy the ride for the season instead of for a Saturday morning?

        Originally posted by rocket5612 View Post
        Do all you USAC bashers who question the talents of Levi Jones and Bryan Clauson even realize that one of the least talented drivers in USAC history actually won one of your formula car races in Indy Lights this year?
        I wanted to bring that up at the time, but didn't know much about the driver involved. I knew that I had never heard of him and couldn't really find any evidence of significant USAC success (no points, etc).

        Originally posted by rocket5612 View Post
        Midgets = 900lbs cars with 375hp
        Sprint Cars = 1200lbs cars with 900hp

        Car control is what you learn in USAC. Far more so than any formula car that is extremely under powered with thousands of pounds of downforce added to that.
        This is an important point. Since there isn't a sufficient American ladder to provide the needed American talent, Indy car needs to look toward transferable talents instead of exact experience in specific skills. A driver that is successful in USAC certainly has to be quick and efficient as a driver, is going to be race seasoned, and will have raced on a variety of surfaces. For a USAC driver to be successful on pavement, the driver needs to be smooth on the throttle, smooth in steering inputs, and able to maintain momentum through the arc of the corner. Those are transferable skills. It doesn't matter whether a driver learns those skills with a goal of keeping not bogging his low HP formula ford in a corner, or to keep the wings of his star mazda oriented appropriately to the angle of attack, or to keep from burning up the right rear tire of his silver crown car in a 100 lap pavement race - that driver has an important transferable skill. This was exactly what made Tony Stewart so effective early in his Indy car career - he was able to make the notoriously peaky Buick-TV6 run more smoothly than anyone else driving it. He learned that driving a silver crown car.

        Originally posted by 225_at_Indy View Post
        Doesn't it feel like 15 years ago? Just replace Randy Bernard with Tony George and Bryan Clauson with Tony Stewart?
        It shows that Tony George was asking the right question at the time. He was just so politically loaded within the sport that the question was immediately discarded because it was him doing the asking. The problem is that 15 years has put us in probably a more difficult position to address the question. As others have brought up, then we had media exposure not just for USAC but also for lots of different forms of racing. That exposure and the financial resources that went with it are long gone. Anyone coming up now will really only be known by USAC fans - we don't have Thursday Night Thunder giving these drivers nationwide exposure. That is a real and important difference in the times.

        Originally posted by millrace View Post
        Who are some of the best USAC drivers in terms of intelligence + talent? Just asking, because those are the ones who might be able to make the jump.
        Actually, for that you may need to expand the search even beyond the full-time drivers. For example, Shane Hollingsworth races only part-time with USAC, but is a regular campaigner at the independent Indiana tracks (he won the track championship at Putnamville this year). He is not only a fine race driver but also an engineering graduate of Rose Hulman.

        Originally posted by Cygni View Post
        That... kinda proves my point. TStew went on to big bucks and fame in NASCAR, Kinser never had any luck or opportunities and gave up, and Boat/Beechler went by the wayside when the talent came back.
        It wasn't talent that drove these guys out but a change in the economic model that made running a team more expensive and increased the attractiveness of ride buyers instead of real talent. Rest assured that it wasn't just oval racing talent that got squeezed out in the economic upheaval. We can all think of talented, professional drivers with road racing backgrounds that should also be in Indy cars ahead of any of the amateurs driving for KV racing.

        OK, I guess I am done now.
        Last edited by Professor Joe; 10-23-2010, 10:58 AM.
        Professor Joe
        Lost in Indy

        "So many of these guys know how to preserve their tires, how to handle traffic and how to win a race. They really deserve to be in Indy cars." - Bob East

        Comment

        • ptclaus98
          Insider
          • Jul 2010
          • 3047

          #79
          Originally posted by numetalbizkit View Post
          He was hired by those companies to drive, so he was doing everything he could to let people know. He a optimist, cut the guy some slack.

          Edit: If you actually meet Summerton and have a conversation with him, his happiness and cheerfulness rubs off on you. He's a very approachable person and a genuinely nice guy.
          I'm sure he's a great kid, and he's a decent racer who has finally found out where he needs to focus his effort. But I'm not going to believe anything he says about anything.
          "It takes a special level of incompetance to make a schedule this terrible. America is possibly the greatest country in the world overall for tracks. To make a bad schedule in America takes effort. A special kind of effort. A kind of effort that only IndyCar could come up with."

          Comment

          • rocket5612
            Insider
            • Jun 2009
            • 313

            #80
            WOW! Someone who actually GETS IT on this forum....amazing.

            Originally posted by Professor Joe View Post
            I'm surprised I have been able to stay out of this discussion. Approaching mid-terms must have kept me busy!



            No, you are not less of a race fan. But, for years Indy car has wanted the loyalty of the short-track fan without in return respecting that part of the American grass-roots racing scene. Traditional professional oval racing still greatly outnumbers the road-racing series both in numbers of total participants and numbers of loyal, paying fans. To separate the Indy car series from both the deeper talent pool and the loyal fans of that pool while still expecting those fans to remain of Indy car racing never made sense from any sort of business perspective. Traditional oval-racing fans like me are not belittling road-racing fans, but we are tired of feeling like our preferred part of the sport is being belittled as well.



            I can't disagree with this, but the "modern" open wheel ladder is not set up to be a meritocracy that truly forces talent to compete to rise to the top. They don't race often enough to become truly race-seasoned, their advance is predicated as much (or more) on their ability to fund-raise as it is on their on-track performance. As a result, they can't consistently compete with the drivers coming from better-developed international developmental series. Until the "modern open wheel ladder" matures into truly professional racing, Indy car needs to look where the American talent is currently racing and not just where it wishes the talent would race. You are right, USAC does have a midwest bias. That just argues that Indy car needs to look EVERYWHERE that young Americans are racing in its search for talent.



            That is an interesting question. Did the current group of young USAC drivers enter USAC racing realistically thinking about a future career in Indy cars - probably not. But, they are professional race drivers that want to make a living driving race cars. If the professional opportunity comes along to make a better living driving race cars, many certainly will jump at it. But, that gets to the last part of your comment - is Indy car a truly professional race series looking to employ professional race car drivers or is it some glorified version of the Indy Racing Experience that just has a larger fee to buy the ride for the season instead of for a Saturday morning?



            I wanted to bring that up at the time, but didn't know much about the driver involved. I knew that I had never heard of him and couldn't really find any evidence of significant USAC success (no points, etc).



            This is an important point. Since there isn't a sufficient American ladder to provide the needed American talent, Indy car needs to look toward transferable talents instead of exact experience in specific skills. A driver that is successful in USAC certainly has to be quick and efficient as a driver, is going to be race seasoned, and will have raced on a variety of surfaces. For a USAC driver to be successful on pavement, the driver needs to be smooth on the throttle, smooth in steering inputs, and able to maintain momentum through the arc of the corner. Those are transferable skills. It doesn't matter whether a driver learns those skills with a goal of keeping not bogging his low HP formula ford in a corner, or to keep the wings of his star mazda oriented appropriately to the angle of attack, or to keep from burning up the right rear tire of his silver crown car in a 100 lap pavement race - that driver has an important transferable skill. This was exactly what made Tony Stewart so effective early in his Indy car career - he was able to make the notoriously peaky Buick-TV6 run more smoothly than anyone else driving it. He learned that driving a silver crown car.



            It shows that Tony George was asking the right question at the time. He was just so politically loaded within the sport that the question was immediately discarded because it was him doing the asking. The problem is that 15 years has put us in probably a more difficult position to address the question. As others have brought up, then we had media exposure not just for USAC but also for lots of different forms of racing. That exposure and the financial resources that went with it are long gone. Anyone coming up now will really only be known by USAC fans - we don't have Thursday Night Thunder giving these drivers nationwide exposure. That is a real and important difference in the times.



            Actually, for that you may need to expand the search even beyond the full-time drivers. For example, Shane Hollingsworth races only part-time with USAC, but is a regular campaigner at the independent Indiana tracks (he won the track championship at Putnamville this year). He is not only a fine race driver but also an engineering graduate of Rose Hulman.



            It wasn't talent that drove these guys out but a change in the economic model that made running a team more expensive and increased the attractiveness of ride buyers instead of real talent. Rest assured that it wasn't just oval racing talent that got squeezed out in the economic upheaval. We can all think of talented, professional drivers with road racing backgrounds that should also be in Indy cars ahead of any of the amateurs driving for KV racing.

            OK, I guess I am done now.

            Comment

            • DannyB
              Moderator
              • Jul 2001
              • 16994

              #81
              A Lincoln Park Speedway cheeseburger and a to my professor buddy.

              Comment

              • Professor Joe
                Thread Killer
                • Aug 2000
                • 2798

                #82
                Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                A Lincoln Park Speedway cheeseburger and a to my professor buddy.
                Can I make it a barbecue instead?!
                Professor Joe
                Lost in Indy

                "So many of these guys know how to preserve their tires, how to handle traffic and how to win a race. They really deserve to be in Indy cars." - Bob East

                Comment

                • Jag-lover
                  Insider
                  • Feb 2002
                  • 10956

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Cygni View Post
                  Honest question: Does anyone racing in USAC really give a crap about IndyCar?

                  If you are a "young gun" in USAC and/or dirt, the Indy 500's of your youth were of the Buzz Caulkins and Dr. Jack era. You grew up in a world with NASCAR having multiple races a year with better ratings than the Indy 500, and average ratings MASSIVELY higher than both split open wheel series combined. You grew up in a world where all of the good young USAC and dirt guys went to NASCAR where they were paid millions of dollars and achieved massive fame, while open wheel was full of ride buyers, politics, squabbling, and no interest at all in the USAC world.

                  Honestly, are there any young drivers in USAC who even want to race in IndyCar? Are there any young drivers who see IndyCar as the end goal AT ALL? Because even at the kart tracks, the kids want to go to F1 or NASCAR.

                  And what exactly does this USAC partnership do when the kid still has to come up with $3 million in personal money to have any shot at an IndyCar ride?
                  In my view, the USAC partnership is a good idea. It should be followed by a similar approach using the road racer ladder. These would be the karts and junior formula series. Basically, there should be two tracks available with them meeting at the Lights and Indy Car level. It will take some effort to work though.

                  Comment

                  • STAND E
                    Saw Jim Clark Win Indy!
                    • Dec 2001
                    • 2520

                    #84
                    Barney Oldfield - AJ Foyt - Jim Clark - Dan Gurney - IMS - IMS YT - INDYCAR - INDYCAR YT

                    Comment

                    • Bruce Spencer
                      Insider
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 3414

                      #85
                      Oh for the days when Indy 500 drivers raced in the Hoosier 100. Says a lot about the decline of modern day Indy car racing.
                      I'll see YOU at the races!

                      Comment

                      • VirtualBalboa
                        Insider
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 6458

                        #86
                        It wasn't talent that drove these guys out but a change in the economic model that made running a team more expensive and increased the attractiveness of ride buyers instead of real talent. Rest assured that it wasn't just oval racing talent that got squeezed out in the economic upheaval. We can all think of talented, professional drivers with road racing backgrounds that should also be in Indy cars ahead of any of the amateurs driving for KV racing.
                        I don't see any change in economic model that drove out Boat or Beechler. What I do see is that there was an attempt to artificially change the economic model by a massive influx of cash by IMS to subsidize teams. When the cash dried up, the market corrected itself. As it was, there's no real difference in the way Foyt (in the example of Beechler) operated from its time in CART to the IRL's inception to the time Beechler departed to now.

                        Comment

                        • VirtualBalboa
                          Insider
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 6458

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Bruce Spencer View Post
                          Oh for the days when Indy 500 drivers raced in the Hoosier 100. Says a lot about the decline of modern day Indy car racing.
                          Once upon a time, F1 drivers would also run the occasional F2 and sports car race on the side. Today, they never do. Oddly, it would be hard to claim that F1 has declined versus its commercial position in the 1960s.

                          Comment

                          • DaveL
                            Insider
                            • Apr 2001
                            • 12429

                            #88
                            Originally posted by Bruce Spencer View Post
                            Oh for the days when Indy 500 drivers raced in the Hoosier 100. Says a lot about the decline of modern day Indy car racing.
                            Back in the Glory Days Indycar drivers had to race sprint, stocks, or anything else because they had to make a living and winning a few hundred bucks once the team got it's 60% cut running only Indycars wasn't going to pay the bills.
                            The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                            No one had to badge the Offy.

                            Crapping all over threads since 2000.

                            Comment

                            • free2game
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2010
                              • 514

                              #89
                              Originally posted by VirtualBalboa View Post
                              Once upon a time, F1 drivers would also run the occasional F2 and sports car race on the side. Today, they never do. Oddly, it would be hard to claim that F1 has declined versus its commercial position in the 1960s.
                              Part of that is because drivers are under contracts to not drive anything else and F1 takes all of their time. You still do see the occasional driver do side things. Robert Kubica recently did a rally event and actually finished pretty highly in it.

                              Comment

                              • free2game
                                Banned
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 514

                                #90
                                Also I still stand by what I said. USAC has nothing in common with current indycars be it the audience or the driving style. There's already a ladder where a lot of American drivers have come through and that's what they should focus on. Get more American companies involved and have them build up a larger modern open wheel ladder. The big problem isn't American who want to drive either, it's just that costs are too high now and most American drivers don't have money behind them and if they do, they're probably going to race in Europe where there's a bigger potential paycheck for an open wheel driver, because there is no potential paycheck for any American open wheel driver right now.

                                Comment

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