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Why not production based engines?

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  • Why not production based engines?

    It seems like it would allow for this great variety of engine suppliers we all want. If they used engines similiar to Le Mans Prototypes we could have Honda, Zytek, Audi, Aston Martin, Porsche, and Mazda engines potentially available.
    Last edited by free2game; 09-21-2010, 08:39 PM.

  • #2
    Ask Honda. I assume there's not many production engines designed to go flat out for 400 miles though.
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary… that's what gets you.

    http://twitter.com/WhateverJoel

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jcmark611 View Post
      Ask Honda. I assume there's not many production engines designed to go flat out for 400 miles though.
      They seem to work fine going flat out 90% of the time for 3362 miles.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by free2game View Post
        Why not production based engines?
        Because production-based engines weren't designed to be race engines. They are typically heavier, bigger, less reliable and less powerful than what you'd need to put in a chassis designed to run in the Indy 500 and other IndyCar races. More often than not, in attempting to turn a production street car engine into a full-fledged race engine you end up spending as much, or more, than you would to designer a proper, purpose-built race engine designed specifically for the task at hand - and you end up with an engine that is a mess of compromises.

        Originally posted by free2game View Post
        If they used engines similiar to Le Mans Prototypes we could have Honda, Zytek, Audi, Aston Martin, and Porsche engines potentially available.
        Let's look at the Aston Martin engine, for example. The engine that Aston ran at Le Mans this year was a big V12 that was a highly-modified version of the engine it uses in the DB9, DBS and Rapide street cars. It's too big and too heavy for use in an Indy car. Next year, under the new ACO rules, they'll be running a new purpose-built race engine in place of the production-based engine.
        "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Spike View Post
          Because production-based engines weren't designed to be race engines. They are typically heavier, bigger, less reliable and less powerful than what you'd need to put in a chassis designed to run in the Indy 500 and other IndyCar races. More often than not, in attempting to turn a production street car engine into a full-fledged race engine you end up spending as much, or more, than you would to designer a proper, purpose-built race engine designed specifically for the task at hand - and you end up with an engine that is a mess of compromises.

          Let's look at the Aston Martin engine, for example. The engine that Aston ran at Le Mans this year was a big V12 that was a highly-modified version of the engine it uses in the DB9, DBS and Rapide street cars. It's too big and too heavy for use in an Indy car. Next year, under the new ACO rules, they'll be running a new purpose-built race engine in place of the production-based engine.
          Hmm, didn't the IRL try a production type of engine and scattered scrap iron and hot oil over several counties?
          Dale Manus

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Spike View Post
            Because production-based engines weren't designed to be race engines. They are typically heavier, bigger, less reliable and less powerful than what you'd need to put in a chassis designed to run in the Indy 500 and other IndyCar races. More often than not, in attempting to turn a production street car engine into a full-fledged race engine you end up spending as much, or more, than you would to designer a proper, purpose-built race engine designed specifically for the task at hand - and you end up with an engine that is a mess of compromises.

            Let's look at the Aston Martin engine, for example. The engine that Aston ran at Le Mans this year was a big V12 that was a highly-modified version of the engine it uses in the DB9, DBS and Rapide street cars. It's too big and too heavy for use in an Indy car. Next year, under the new ACO rules, they'll be running a new purpose-built race engine in place of the production-based engine.
            No they wont. Next year it's going to be LMP2 based engines which are homologated production car engines. And what weight are you talking about? An LMP2 chassis is only 300 pounds heavier than the current Dallara. They run with a decent amount of horsepower with the huge restrictors on them now. Maybe the size, but who cares if the engines are bigger and they aren't quiet as reliable if we can have real variety. They aren't all larger either. The LMP2 HPD engine is actually smaller than the Indycar HPD engine.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dmanus View Post
              Hmm, didn't the IRL try a production type of engine and scattered scrap iron and hot oil over several counties?
              Go with an established world standard that you could buy proven versions of. That's my point.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by free2game View Post
                Go with an established world standard that you could buy proven versions of. That's my point.
                Well, that would at least keep a few bloaks off the streets for a while figuring it all out.
                Dale Manus

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dmanus View Post
                  Hmm, didn't the IRL try a production type of engine and scattered scrap iron and hot oil over several counties?
                  Yes and no.

                  One of the original tenets of the IRL was the claim of lower costs by utilizing production-based engines but the engine-makers quickly dissuaded TG et al from that misguided path. The resulting "Oldsmobile" and "Infiniti" engines were actually purpose-built engines that, by the rules, had to share a few dimensions (IIRC, bore spacing, deck height...) with their stock counterparts. The Olds was somewhat based on an existing engine design that had seen some time in IMSA competition. Bottom line was they were not great engines and yes, they blew up a bunch. Remember the League-mandated "diapers?"
                  "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by free2game View Post
                    No they wont. Next year it's going to be LMP2 based engines which are homologated production car engines.
                    Aston Martin will be running a newly-designed, purpose-built race engine next year in its LMP1 chassis. That's what I was talking about.

                    Aston Martin will return to the legendary Le Mans 24 Hour race in 2011 with a new LMP1 race car designed to compete for top honours.

                    The new Gulf Oil liveried car is being designed from the ground up with an Aston Martin open cockpit monocoque chassis and a new purpose-designed race engine.
                    http://www.astonmartin.com/thecompan...f-8d66e064dbc8

                    The LMP1 2011 Aston Martin Le Mans race car features a new purpose-designed race engine and the company's open cockpit monocoque chassis. The 2011 LMP1 race car complies with the new Automobile Club De L'Ouest (ACO) technical regulations for 2011 and was built to go against the diesel-engined competitors.
                    http://www.zercustoms.com/news/2011-...-Race-Car.html
                    "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Spike View Post
                      Remember the League-mandated "diapers?"
                      Please tell me that wasn't exactly what it sounds like.
                      Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Spike View Post
                        Aston Martin will be running a newly-designed, purpose-built race engine next year in its LMP1 chassis. That's what I was talking about.

                        http://www.astonmartin.com/thecompan...f-8d66e064dbc8
                        It's still production based. It has to be. Those are the rules.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by free2game View Post
                          It's still production based. It has to be. Those are the rules.
                          The LMP2 rules, yes.

                          LMP1 (the top class) are purpose built racing engines.
                          "While things were not as rosy as the CART fanatics recall, neither were they as dire as the IRL fanatics would have you believe." - Don Capps

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by free2game View Post
                            It's still production based. It has to be. Those are the rules.
                            In LMP2, yes.

                            In LMP1 (which is what I was referring to), no.
                            "I would really like to go to NASCAR. I really enjoy NASCAR and if I could be there in a couple of years that's where I'd want to be." - Jeff Gordon (after testing a Formula Super Vee)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JM64 View Post
                              The LMP2 rules, yes.

                              LMP1 (the top class) are purpose built racing engines.
                              No they aren't. And current LMP1 rules are going away next year. Heavily modified yes. But still production based. It's been like that for a long time.

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