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  • Pre-WW2 statistics question...

    Have the AAA era stats been folded into the overall Indycar stats?

    I realize that is a Y/N question...but the reason I ask is in looking at some mid 30's events sanctioned by AAA I see both Tazio Nuvolari and Bernd Rosemeyer won races in the US that were part of the AAA championship. Thus, are they statistically considered winners of US Open Wheel champ car races, a.k.a. the equivalent of a modern Indycar race?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Martyj View Post
    Have the AAA era stats been folded into the overall Indycar stats?
    Yes, they have always been a part of the stats.

    Comment


    • #3
      We have a Bernd Rosemeyer Street in our city.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Martyj View Post
        Have the AAA era stats been folded into the overall Indycar stats?

        I realize that is a Y/N question...but the reason I ask is in looking at some mid 30's events sanctioned by AAA I see both Tazio Nuvolari and Bernd Rosemeyer won races in the US that were part of the AAA championship. Thus, are they statistically considered winners of US Open Wheel champ car races, a.k.a. the equivalent of a modern Indycar race?
        Actually, there are the histories and statistics of the AAA, USAC, CART, IRL/INDYCAR, and CCWS that are separate and distinct one from the other. Why? Because each was a separate and distinct organization both legally and as a sanctioning body. Therefore, each has a unique and distinct identity. Whether you like it or agree with that is not relevant, it is a fact. Unfortunately, much of "Indy car" racing history concerning the AAA era is the result of so-called "auto racing historians" dealing in Alternate Facts.

        The current INDYCAR web site is even a bigger mess than its "historical record books" were, which is quite an accomplishment to say the least. The "past winners" part of the site tends to be littered with typos, errors of all sorts, and generally something that a third-grader could do better. Some examples: it assigns contemporary names to various venues; has the eleven (11) event listing for the 1920 season; and includes the 1909-1915 and 1917-1919 season in its listing of AAA championship seasons.

        And, then, there is this:

        ***INDYCAR has begun the process of digitizing our historical records dating back to 1909 and the earliest days of our sport. You are viewing an initial phase of this project. Please continue to visit this page and follow us on social media for updates as we continue to expand this historical experience.

        The above statement has been on the INDYCAR site since some point in 2017. The AAA records that exist are at the IMS Museum down in the basement in five file cabinets; much of the material was placed on microfilm in the 1980s but without much organization in some instances, e.g., later material (Phil Harms, Russ Catlin...) mixed in with contemporary material.

        Season Champion Season Champion
        1905 Barney Oldfield 1916 Dario Resta
        1920 Gaston Chevrolet 1921 Tommy Milton
        1922 Jimmy Murphy 1923 Eddie Hearne
        1924 Jimmy Murphy 1925 Peter DePaolo
        1926 Harry Hartz 1927 Peter DePaolo
        1928 Louis Meyer 1929 Louis Meyer
        1930 Billy Arnold 1931 Louis Schneider
        1932 Bob Carey 1933 Louis Meyer
        1934 Bill Cummings 1935 Kelly Petillo
        1936 Mauri Rose 1937 Wilbur Shaw
        1938 Floyd Roberts 1939 Wilbur Shaw
        1940 Rex Mays 1941 Rex Mays
        1946 Ted Horn 1947 Ted Horn
        1948 Ted Horn 1949 Johnnie Parsons
        1950 Henry Banks 1951 Tony Bettenhausen
        1952 Chuck Stevenson 1953 Sam Hanks
        1954 Jimmy Bryan 1955 Bob Sweikert
        This is the listing of AAA National Champions as recognized by the Racing Board and then the Contest Board. Ignore the other listings because they are the result of Alternate Facts; and, yes, the listing on the Astor Cup is incorrect. Very much so.

        I recently took a project off the shelf that I started some many years ago regarding the AAA and its Racing Board and the Contest Board and the championship events that each sanctioned over time. It includes a discussion of the Champion Drivers from 1909 to 1915 and 1919, which is far more complex and nuanced that even John Glenn Printz realized.

        At any rate, depending upon circumstances I hope to finally get it done in the not too distant future. Unlike the so-called "auto racing historians," as an actual historian there are footnotes, research notes, a bibliography and all that sort of thing in the monograph.

        Basically, I finally got well and truly sick and tired of the sorry job that INDYCAR and the rest of the generally useless lot have been doing for ages upon ages.

        HDC
        And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
        Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

        Comment


        • #5
          I just wanted to say hello Don, I hope you are doing well!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lotuspoweredbyford View Post
            I just wanted to say hello Don, I hope you are doing well!
            Mike,

            How are you! Hope you're healthy and doing well.

            And, yeh, the rumble continues....

            Don
            And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
            Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

            Comment


            • #7
              Don, I'm looking forward to reading this! As you well know, I'm looking at some of the same parts of the story from a slightly different angle, and have been on and off working "on a project", likely of similar proportions to yours (i.e. too big to start with, and growing by the minute... ). I am slowly realizing, however, that I will probably never see it finished AND polished enough to find a publisher, so I'm beginning to think more and more about the possibility of doing an online version, not unlike the "Goldenb Era" project of Leif Snelman and Hans Etzrodt. What are your plans for publishing, another RVM?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Michael Ferner View Post
                Don, I'm looking forward to reading this! As you well know, I'm looking at some of the same parts of the story from a slightly different angle, and have been on and off working "on a project", likely of similar proportions to yours (i.e. too big to start with, and growing by the minute... ). I am slowly realizing, however, that I will probably never see it finished AND polished enough to find a publisher, so I'm beginning to think more and more about the possibility of doing an online version, not unlike the "Goldenb Era" project of Leif Snelman and Hans Etzrodt. What are your plans for publishing, another RVM?
                Check your email, Michael.
                And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
                Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

                Comment


                • #9
                  Anyone notice any problems with this listing for the supposed "1909 Season AAA National Championship?"
                  06/09/1909 Merrimack Valley Course Road Course Bob Burman Buick - -
                  06/11/1909 Cactus Derby Course Point-to-Point Joe Nikrent Buick - -
                  06/12/1909 Portland Road Race Course Road Course Howard Covey Cadillac - -
                  06/12/1909 Portland Road Race Course Road Course Charles Arnold Pope Hartford - -
                  06/12/1909 Portland Road Race Course Road Course Bert Dingley Chalmers Detroit - -
                  06/18/1909 Crown Point Road Race Course Road Course Joe Matson Chalmers Detroit - -
                  06/19/1909 Crown Point Road Race Course Road Course Louis Chevrolet Buick - -
                  07/05/1909 Brighton Road Race Course Road Course Eaton McMillian Colburn - -
                  07/09/1909 Merrimack Valley Course Road Course William Knipper Chalmers Detroit - -
                  07/09/1909 Merrimack Valley Course Road Course Louis Chevrolet Buick - -
                  07/10/1909 Santa Monica Road Race Course Road Course Harris Hanshue Apperson - -
                  07/10/1909 Santa Monica Road Race Course Road Course Bert Dingley Chalmers Detroit - -
                  08/09/1909 Merrimack Valley Course Road Course George Robertson Simplex - -
                  08/19/1909 Indiana State Fairgrounds Dirt Oval Bob Burman Buick - -
                  08/20/1909 Indiana State Fairgrounds Dirt Oval Louis Strang Buick - -
                  08/21/1909 Indiana State Fairgrounds Dirt Oval Leigh Lynch Jackson - -
                  09/10/1909 Fairmount Park Road Course George Robertson Simplex - -
                  09/29/1909 Riverhead Road Race Course Road Course Ralph DePalma Fiat - -
                  09/29/1909 Riverhead Road Race Course Road Course Frank Lescault Palmer Singer - -
                  09/29/1909 Riverhead Road Race Course Road Course William Sharp Sharp Arrow - -
                  09/29/1909 Riverhead Road Race Course Road Course Louis Chevrolet Buick - -
                  09/29/1909 Riverhead Road Race Course Road Course Arthur See Maxwell - -
                  10/24/1909 Portola Road Race Course Road Course Jack Fleming Pope Hartford - -
                  10/30/1909 Long Island Motor Parkway Road Course Harry Grant Alco - -
                  Other than typos relating to dates? And, getting a certain venue wrong?

                  Why, even had the AAA conducted a championship in 1909, would it include the Lowell event which was held using a sanction from the ACA? Thanks to the creation of the Motor Cups Holding Company, the AAA and the ACA were at least now talking to one another, but scarcely

                  How about this listing for the 1920 season?
                  02/28/1920 Los Angeles Motor Speedway Board Jimmy Murphy Duesenberg - -
                  03/28/1920 Los Angeles Motor Speedway Board Art Klein Peugeot - -
                  03/28/1920 Los Angeles Motor Speedway Board Jimmy Murphy Duesenberg - -
                  03/28/1920 Los Angeles Motor Speedway Board Tommy Milton Duesenberg - -
                  05/31/1920 Indianapolis Motor Speedway Oval Gaston Chevrolet Frontenac - -
                  06/19/1920 Uniontown Speedway Board Tommy Milton Duesenberg - -
                  07/05/1920 Pacific Coast Speedway Board Tommy Milton Duesenberg - -
                  08/28/1920 Elgin Road Race Course Road Course Ralph DePalma Ballot - -
                  09/06/1920 Uniontown Speedway Board Tommy Milton Duesenberg - -
                  10/02/1920 Fresno Speedway Board Jimmy Murphy Duesenberg - -
                  11/25/1920 Los Angeles Motor Speedway Board Roscoe Sarles Duesenberg - -
                  Arthur Means, Russ Catlin, and Bob Russo would be ecstatic to see that INDYCAR agrees with them...

                  What a mess, INDYCAR!!!!!
                  And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
                  Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Don Capps View Post
                    Anyone notice any problems with this listing for the supposed "1909 Season AAA National Championship?"


                    Other than typos relating to dates? And, getting a certain venue wrong?


                    Arthur Means, Russ Catlin, and Bob Russo would be ecstatic to see that INDYCAR agrees with them...

                    What a mess, INDYCAR!!!!!
                    Indiana State Fairground instead of IMS? I mean, the whole thing is a mess.


                    The question I have (for you, but really to the group as a whole), is why are people so seemingly unwilling/reluctant to correct the record? What is so wrong with simply stating the facts and telling it as it was? Striving to get it right after all these years. Is it still not ok to admit that some folks created revisionist history? As you've demonstrated quite well, the records are there. Whether a scholar digging through the official "basement" files, or an amateur/hobbyist pouring through newspaper microfilm, about anyone that's interested in doing it, can separate fact from fiction.

                    Clearly there was a "poisoning of the well" back in the day. Whether well-intentioned, or ill-intentioned, it just needs to stop. I'm glad there are people like you that are actually interested in setting the record straight. I just don't understand why some people are unappreciative, uninterested, or downright hostile to it.

                    ***

                    As for the original topic, I've always been a little leery about trying to mash and lump all of the AAA/USAC/CART/IRL stats into one combined list. I know they want to try to create a single lineage that dates back and connects everything back to day 1, but it just seems forced and at times not-applicable.
                    Doctorindy.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I will try to answer some of your questions.

                      When I began looking into this topic, my ignorance regarding it was perhaps only matched by my lack of knowledge of the topic. However, as I realized that at least someone was raising questions about it all, John Glenn Printz (as well as Gordon Kirby who first gave Printz a platform), I began to do what historians do, I started to frame and ask questions, conduct research, analyze what I found, and repeat as necessary, to begin arriving at interpretations of what all this meant, if you will. What became clearer and clearer was that this whole view of the AAA and its sanctioning of American motor sport, with the national championship in particular, was built on what would be the metaphorical foundation of sand. Not to mention a plentiful bounty of Alternate Facts.

                      A major part of the problems is simple:

                      This from Casablanca:
                      Captain Louis Renault: What in heaven’s name brought you to Casablanca?
                      Rick Blaine: My health. I came to Casablanca for the waters.
                      Captain Renault: The waters? What waters? We’re in the desert.
                      Blaine: I was misinformed.

                      And this from Squadron Leader L.A. Jackets, former chief, Air Ministry Historical Branch, Ministry of Defence, quoted in Richard J. Evans, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial (Basic Books, 2001), 169:
                      It is practically impossible to kill a myth of this kind once it has become widespread and perhaps reprinted in other books all over the world.

                      You don't don't have to be an historian to write history, but it tends to help. Most so-called "auto racing historians" appear to have done minimal, if any of the sort of research that even a high schooler would do for a term paper. They simply regurgitated what those preceding them had written and even embroidered it in some cases. Look at the many issues of annuals, yearbooks, and record books that the AAA, USAC, CART, and IRL/INDYCAR produced over the decades. Until its 1994 edition of the media guide, CART used the same listing as USAC had since 1958, the listing that Catlin created beginning with the 1902 season,

                      I am now old, becoming very aware of my morality once again, so I have no problems being blunt: at the base of all this reluctance is, not to mince words, STUPIDITY. Ignorance on the part of INDYCAR and many others is no longer an option: the Facts are out there. Indeed, I have personally hammered the INDYCAR organization several times with the errors of their ways, to apparent little effect. INDYCAR does not like to be told that it is wrong when it comes to its view of Indy car history. It still believes Alternate Facts because that is what you can find in the old record books, annuals, and yer books -- that were wrong.

                      I could go on, but you get the drift.

                      And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
                      Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Don Capps View Post
                        I will try to answer some of your questions.
                        I could go on, but you get the drift.[/FONT]
                        Indeed I do. Thanks for the response.

                        Aside from the specific topic at hand, I'm at the point where I generally question everything I read in a book or hear by word of mouth about the history of Indy car racing (or at least take it with some tiny, reasonable dose of skepticism) until I can vet it with other reliable [contemporary] sources. The history of Indy car racing (and I suppose any subject one is interested in) isn't something that should be taken with blind faith, but instead with curiosity, and an anxiousness to dig deeper and pursue questions, correct errors, and set the record straight.
                        Doctorindy.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh so true, Doc! "Any subject one is interested in isn't something that should be taken with blind faith" is a sentence that should be hammered into every young (and old!) head every day, because it's so basic, and so true. Take everyday examples, if you will - people ask, do you trust the mainstream media, do you believe what they say? My answer is always, no, I don't believe anything, I always use critical thinking (which, by the way, almost inevitably leads one to trust certain sources more than others, and rather unsurprisingly, those are mostly those that are often derogatorily described as "mainstream media"...).

                          Don, I don't think it's really stupidty that comes into play here, it is IGNORANCE, after all, which is a far worse trait than stupidity. Stupid people don't know or don't understand things for reasons which are beyond their control - IGNORANT people, on the other hand, know better but they IGNORE reason, to serve their inferior motives. And in this case, I think the "inferior motive" isn't really that damning. We talked about this before, I think people are generally not interested in history at all, but they are interested in records, in data, in statistics. They embrace the alternate facts because they give them a broader baseline to compile their statistics. They like it because it gives them fodder to make statements about the GOAT and other such nonsense.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To point out the Obvious to Even the Untrained Eye... fora such as this one and others are & have been more a part of the problem more than they have been a part of the solution.
                            And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
                            Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE=Don Capps;n6884604]Anyone notice any problems with this listing for the supposed "1909 Season AAA National Championship?"
                              [TABLE]
                              [TR]
                              [TD]06/09/1909[/TD]
                              [TD]Merrimack Valley Course[/TD]

                              Only that I had no idea championship racing took place so near to where I grew up.
                              I'll see YOU at the races!

                              Comment

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