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Incoming -- A new book on the split by John Oreovicz

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  • #91
    Received my copy yesterday, and will find time this weekend before the '500 to hopefully complete it.
    RHR: "I'm a proud American boy right now!" -2014 Indy 500 Victory Lane

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    • #92
      Originally posted by WatsonRoadster9 View Post
      I’m in chapter 5. Amazing the resistance to change and the Offy, originally developed as a marine engine hung on for 5 decades.
      If the author really thinks that the Offy was "originally developed as a marine engine", then I have very little doubt that the best use for the book will be the fireplace... the inside of it, that is.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Michael Ferner View Post

        If the author really thinks that the Offy was "originally developed as a marine engine", then I have very little doubt that the best use for the book will be the fireplace... the inside of it, that is.
        The Miller Marine engine is the forerunner of the Offy engine. It’s actually written well and enjoyable so far. Foyt taking both sides and evidently siding with USAC kinda of makes me wonder.
        Chicago Cubs 2016 World Series Champions

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        • #94
          Originally posted by WatsonRoadster9 View Post
          Foyt taking both sides and evidently siding with USAC kinda of makes me wonder.
          You talking about 1996 or 1979?

          In his book, Foyt wrote that agreed with CART's mission or vision in 1979, but when the owners started fighting for advantage for their own teams instead of the good of the series, he was neutral/ran the USAC circuit in 1979.

          He said both CART and USAC were (whizzing) in the wind.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by WatsonRoadster9 View Post

            The Miller Marine engine is the forerunner of the Offy engine.
            Which, even if it were true, isn't the same as saying that the Offy was originally developed as a marine engine. But it wasn't, and neither was "the" marine engine a forerunner of the Offy, other than in a chronological context. Someone long ago once made that remark, and it gets repeated without thought over and over again. In truth, only the Offenhauser Midget engine shared a couple of features with one of the engines Miller had produced for marine usage, but the similarity was no more than skindeep, and anyway that engine (or any developments of it) never ran at Indy. To declare otherwise, or even say that the Indy Offy engine was "originally developed as a marine engine", shows just a complete lack of understanding and ignorance of the history of this famous engine and its derivates. Going on from that, one probably has to expect "skindeep" research for the rest of the book, too.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by MS View Post

              You talking about 1996 or 1979?

              In his book, Foyt wrote that agreed with CART's mission or vision in 1979, but when the owners started fighting for advantage for their own teams instead of the good of the series, he was neutral/ran the USAC circuit in 1979.

              He said both CART and USAC were (whizzing) in the wind.
              1979. I haven’t gotten to the 1990s in the book yet. Foyt certainly was a Hulman fan no doubt.
              Chicago Cubs 2016 World Series Champions

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              • #97
                I just finished Penske's Maestro, Karl Kainhofer and the History of Penske Racing... and I quote...

                "When Penske Racing won its first Indy car race at Pocono in 1971 there were many thousands of spectators there. The grandstands were full. You go there today and there's nobody there. There's a reason that nobody's there. The cars are all the same and there's only four or five Americans in the field. A lot of mistakes were made over the years. The first split with USAC should have never happened and the second split with the IRL was a disaster for Indy car racing".

                I'm with Karl on this one.
                I'll see YOU at the races!

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by MS View Post

                  You talking about 1996 or 1979?

                  In his book, Foyt wrote that agreed with CART's mission or vision in 1979, but when the owners started fighting for advantage for their own teams instead of the good of the series, he was neutral/ran the USAC circuit in 1979.

                  He said both CART and USAC were (whizzing) in the wind.
                  Whitaker's book quotes a longer version of a 1979 Indianapolis Star article that Oreovicz only quotes in part. Oreovicz quotes Foyt denouncing CART, "They used me to get CART formed and now there are only one or two guys doing all the talking. They're on an ego trip."

                  Oreovicz's book though leaves out a detail that provides a little more context for Foyt's about-face. Foyt was apparently upset that Pat Patrick had kept him from participating at a CART meeting in Indianapolis in January 1979. Foyt was snowed in in Memphis as was Jim Hall in Little Rock. Foyt called Patrick asking the meeting be postponed so he could make it (along with Hall) and Patrick refused. Foyt later said, "Patrick started saying 'we gotta go forward' and all this and we couldn't have another one that soon. I said we'd agreed to have 100 percent representation and that if I wasn't going to get mine, then maybe I'd see you cats later. Patrick said, 'If you want to say fine, and if you want to leave, fine."

                  Whether Foyt's grievance on this point was legit or not, it does at least provide a context that IMO Oreovicz should have included.

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                  • #99
                    AJ has also said that at the CART meeting prior to the ‘96 season he told them he intended to run one car with CART and one with the IRL.
                    CART said nope, it’s us or them.
                    AJ being AJ then told them what he thought and left the meeting, whereupon Craig Barnouski who was with him was told he had to leave too.
                    AJ then moved both cars to the IRL.
                    Foyt’s personal relations with the Hulmans didn’t enter in his business decisions.
                    “With the help of God and true friends, I come to realize
                    I still got two strong legs, even wings to fly
                    I ain’t wastin’ time no more...”

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                    • Yes, they ended up revoking Foyt's CART license and Foyt even sued CART claiming they'd put pressure on Havoline to no longer give him sponsorship money.

                      CART I would note did not engage in similar "us or them" tactics with Galles and Walker when they ran at Indy as well as Michigan. Richie Hearn also competed in the CART Long Beach race before he raced Indy as well.

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                      • Originally posted by Eric Paddon View Post
                        Yes, they ended up revoking Foyt's CART license and Foyt even sued CART claiming they'd put pressure on Havoline to no longer give him sponsorship money.

                        CART I would note did not engage in similar "us or them" tactics with Galles and Walker when they ran at Indy as well as Michigan. Richie Hearn also competed in the CART Long Beach race before he raced Indy as well.
                        CART had no qualms with Dick Simon running cars at Milwaukee.

                        Perhaps Ol' AJ's recollection of events isn't accurate. There are other sides to the story. Ol' AJ saying something, as if he has no agenda to paint CART is the least favorable way, doesn't make it so. His word is not the Gospel Truth.
                        The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                        No one had to badge the Offy.

                        Crapping all over threads since 2000.

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                        • Originally posted by jandj View Post
                          Foyt’s personal relations with the Hulmans didn’t enter in his business decisions.
                          Can I interest you in a nice bridge in Brooklyn?
                          The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                          No one had to badge the Offy.

                          Crapping all over threads since 2000.

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                          • Originally posted by DaveL View Post

                            Can I interest you in a nice bridge in Brooklyn?
                            I should have been clearer.
                            His relations with the Hulmans didn’t influence his leaving CART in ‘96.
                            It was basically AJ getting a case of the ass.
                            It did play into him sticking with USAC.
                            “With the help of God and true friends, I come to realize
                            I still got two strong legs, even wings to fly
                            I ain’t wastin’ time no more...”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jandj View Post

                              I should have been clearer.
                              His relations with the Hulmans didn’t influence his leaving CART in ‘96.
                              It was basically AJ getting a case of the ass.
                              It did play into him sticking with USAC.
                              Ol' AJ was going to stick with the Hulmans no matter what CART did. His loyalties were always to the Hulmans just like they were in '79.

                              The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                              No one had to badge the Offy.

                              Crapping all over threads since 2000.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DaveL View Post

                                Ol' AJ was going to stick with the Hulmans no matter what CART did. His loyalties were always to the Hulmans just like they were in '79.
                                That is my recollection.
                                “Church supper with grandma and granddad, lets go out and have ourselves the best time we ever had" - John Mellencamp

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