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Incoming -- A new book on the split by John Oreovicz

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Oddy View Post

    Did RP do an Indy only attempt first like Ganassi or did he just switch series? Wasn't it RP that opened the flood gates?
    He had some backing on Leffler's car in '00 IIRC.
    http://www.honorflight.org/

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    • #62
      Originally posted by RacingPortaJohn View Post
      Here’s Dave Despain’s take from 1991...starts at about the 48 minute mark

      The first thing that Tony George says is that there are 13-17 entries for Milwaukee.

      That race had 21 starters and Buddy Lazier failing to qualify.

      "We don't have a bunch of people beating on the door." -Three years later, there were 24 entries that turned up to every single race, plus Lazier who turned up to all bar 2 (and scored zero points), Ross Bentley to all but three, and another three that turned up to half-a-dozen.

      There was obviously a problem with cost increase. But lying about it before even the start is not the way to go.
      "An emphasis was placed on drivers with road racing backgrounds which meant drivers from open wheel, oval track racing were at a disadvantage. That led Tony George to create the IRL." -Indy Review 1996

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      • #63
        Dave hits it on the head at 54:20, CART's MO was all about what was best for the few wealthy owners.
        I'll see YOU at the races!

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Oddy View Post

          Did RP do an Indy only attempt first like Ganassi or did he just switch series? Wasn't it RP that opened the flood gates?
          2001 was Indy only, dare I mention the question: Remember who was the CART Champion that year?
          Or is this question blaspehmy?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Indyote View Post

            2001 was Indy only, dare I mention the question: Remember who was the CART Champion that year?
            Or is this question blaspehmy?
            RP ran Phoenix prior to the 500 that year.
            http://www.honorflight.org/

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            • #66
              Originally posted by RacingPortaJohn View Post

              RP ran Phoenix prior to the 500 that year.
              I stand corrected, you are right.
              Thanks for pointing this out.

              I should have thought about Penske taking up the project serious enough to do enough preparations in advance, including racing the cars before Indy to get a better idea about them.
              My bad.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Indyote View Post

                I stand corrected, you are right.
                Thanks for pointing this out.

                I should have thought about Penske taking up the project serious enough to do enough preparations in advance, including racing the cars before Indy to get a better idea about them.
                My bad.
                But the whole point of Phoenix was preparation for Indy, not to join the IRL, so I'd consider that Indy only.
                “Church supper with grandma and granddad, lets go out and have ourselves the best time we ever had" - John Mellencamp

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Oddy View Post

                  But the whole point of Phoenix was preparation for Indy, not to join the IRL, so I'd consider that Indy only.
                  Thanks, I largely share your opinion.
                  But nevertheless, my comment that it was Indy only isn't correct to the finest detail. I had overlooked that Phoenix outing and credit when credit is due, RacingPortaJon is correct with mentioning this to correct me. And I am more than capable to admit that I stand corrected in this.

                  Bo be honest, I wonder how many readers of these posts never realized that outing at Phoenisx at all. Good chance that many readers have learned something they had all but forgotten of they ever knew about it.

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                  • #69
                    How does one define THE SPLIT? The fissure of 1978/79/80 or that of 1994/95/96? Or are they simply parts of the same event?

                    I suggest that one might find it valuable to consider the 1908 ACA/AIACR/AAA squabble as well as the 1915 IMCA/AAA split. How did the FIASCO (FIA-FOCA) War play into all this? How did the demise of the AAA Contest Board and the establishment of USAC and then ACCUS affect THE SPLIT?

                    What role may have the support by the British government regarding the exports of racing cars, engines, spares, etc., to the US have had on THE SPLIT? This is one that occurred to me years ago, under the "Follow The Money" concept.

                    I suggest that some context regarding 1908 and 1915 might also be both surprisingly relevant and also part of the context.
                    And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
                    Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Don Capps View Post
                      How does one define THE SPLIT? The fissure of 1978/79/80 or that of 1994/95/96? Or are they simply parts of the same event?

                      I suggest that one might find it valuable to consider the 1908 ACA/AIACR/AAA squabble as well as the 1915 IMCA/AAA split. How did the FIASCO (FIA-FOCA) War play into all this? How did the demise of the AAA Contest Board and the establishment of USAC and then ACCUS affect THE SPLIT?

                      What role may have the support by the British government regarding the exports of racing cars, engines, spares, etc., to the US have had on THE SPLIT? This is one that occurred to me years ago, under the "Follow The Money" concept.

                      I suggest that some context regarding 1908 and 1915 might also be both surprisingly relevant and also part of the context.

                      Funny, back in '80 I had the feeling that the FIASCO was a result of Bernie being inspired by what was happening in the USA since '78....

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                      • #71
                        You could argue that the 1978 split began when the Cooper Climax showed up in 1961 and Sir Jack commented that the roadsters were so slow in the turns he "could have walked faster."

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by RacingPortaJohn View Post

                          RP ran Phoenix prior to the 500 that year.
                          Were those cars black? For some reason I can picture black cars with orange Marlboro decals.

                          Edit: Found pics. Black with Penske Auto Center.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Joe Remi View Post

                            Were those cars black? For some reason I can picture black cars with orange Marlboro decals.

                            Edit: Found pics. Black with Penske Auto Center.
                            There was some tricky maneuvering with regards to the Master Settlement Agreement. Which I think contributed to Penske's full-time switch to the IRL starting in 2002.

                            https://www.publichealthlawcenter.or...-agreement.pdf

                            II (j) "Brand Name Sponsorship" means an athletic, musical, artistic, or other social or cultural event as to which payment is made (or other consideration is provided) in exchange for use of a Brand Name or Names (1) as part of the name of the event or (2) to identify, advertise, or promote such event or an entrant, participant or team in such event in any other way. Sponsorship of a single national or multi-state series or tour (for example, NASCAR (including any number of NASCAR races)), or of one or more events within a single national or multi-state series or tour, or of an entrant, participant, or team taking part in events sanctioned by a single approving organization (e.g., NASCAR or CART), constitutes one Brand Name Sponsorship. Sponsorship of an entrant, participant, or team by a Participating Manufacturer using a Brand Name or Names in an event that is part of a series or tour that is sponsored by such Participating Manufacturer or that is part of a series or tour in which any one or more events are sponsored by such Participating Manufacturer does not constitute a separate Brand Name Sponsorship. Sponsorship of an entrant, participant, or team by a Participating Manufacturer using a Brand Name or Names in any event (or series of events) not sponsored by such Participating Manufacturer constitutes a Brand Name Sponsorship. The term "Brand Name Sponsorship" shall not include an event in an Adult-Only Facility
                            The MSA said that a tobacco company could sponsor one racing team (multiple cars on that team was permitted) in one series/one sanctioning body. Since Penske was obviously a CART-based team, it was unclear if they were allowed to have Marlboro logos on their IRL cars. The prevailing opinion was that it would not be. Trying to say that both their CART effort and their IRL (Indy 500) effort was simply part of one "open-wheel racing team" was specious at best,.

                            They showed up at Phoenix with "Penske Auto Center", and black cars, which did not violate the MSA in any way. To try to get around the MSA, the CART board did some sort of vote to grant permission and "sanction" those teams' participation in the Indianapolis 500 (Penske, Ganassi, Andretti/Green, etc.).

                            The Penske IRL cars arrived at Indy in 2001 with Marlboro logos and had them during the first week of practice. I'm pretty sure they qualified with them too. But during the second week, it was decided that the logos could not stay. They were removed before race day, and the cars had familiar Marlboro paint jobs, but no brand logos.

                            As a result of conversations with the state attorneys general regarding the use of the Marlboro brand name in connection with the 2001 Indianapolis 500, Philip Morris U.S.A. has advised the state attorneys general that it will reduce its visibility at the race by removing the Marlboro brand name entirely from its cars and minimize its presence on support equipment and ancillary materials. The state attorneys general late last week contacted Philip Morris U.S.A. regarding the use of the Marlboro brand name in connection with the Indianapolis 500.

                            LLEN MERLO (Senior vice president, corporate affairs, Philip Morris U.S.A.): “We are pleased to have reached this resolution, which is consistent with our commitment to work constructively with the attorneys general, while supporting Team Penske’s participation in the Indianapolis 500.
                            Last edited by Doctorindy; 04-16-2021, 12:11 PM.
                            Doctorindy.com

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Indyote View Post


                              Funny, back in '80 I had the feeling that the FIASCO was a result of Bernie being inspired by what was happening in the USA since '78....
                              The FIASCO War seems to have began really bubbling and boiling during the Spring of 1972 with a dispute between FOCA and the AC de Monaco. It simmered until Balestre arrived to turn it into open warfare.

                              The two confrontations were not really coincidental, simply an interesting matter of timing.
                              And so we beat on, boats against the current, drawn back ceaselessly into the past ... F. Scott Fitzgerald
                              Ever have the feeling that the rest of the world is a tuxedo and you're a pair of brown shoes? ... George Gobel

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                              • #75
                                I received an email notice from Octane Press that my copy of this book has shipped.

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