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  • Penske PC-30?

    Someone posted a photo of a PC-26 on the main IndyCar board and it got me thinking about Penske Cars.

    The PC-26 was the final Nigel Bennett design. John Travis designed the PC-27 for 1998 and then refined it for the PC-27B in 1999. That was the final Penske chassis to be used in competition.

    Penske used a Reynard 2Ki in 2000 and a Reynard 01i in 2001. Travis was responsible for development of both of those chassis for the team - and the team in Poole did a ton of development work, hence the term "Reynske".

    Penske then went full time IRL in 2001.

    I know Penske submitted a proposal to be a constructor for the IRL - but they were turned down. The car was to be known as the PC-30 (I found this on Travis' LinkedIn page).

    Were there every any images of this car released (concept drawings or photographs)? I've never seen anything.

    What about the "missing" PC-29? I believe the PC-28 was designed and possibly built for the 2000 season, but was never run??

    I'm also curious to know more about why the IRL turned down Penske as a possible constructor?
    Real drivers don't need fenders!

  • #2
    Both Penske and Lola were turned down in favor of the Falcon... which despite its name was a lame duck and only a show car was (hastily) built.



    Because 5 chassis builders rather than 3 wouldn't be a healthy series... at least in the old IRL mindset.
    Just wait 'till next year!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by David_Skywalker View Post
      Both Penske and Lola were turned down in favor of the Falcon... which despite its name was a lame duck and only a show car was (hastily) built.



      Because 5 chassis builders rather than 3 wouldn't be a healthy series... at least in the old IRL mindset.
      Those extra chassis would not put any more butts in the seats

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Chris Paff View Post
        Those extra chassis would not put any more butts in the seats
        They might have put more cars, and thus drivers, on the grid. Which almost certainly would sell seats.
        Just wait 'till next year!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pelican Joe View Post
          Someone posted a photo of a PC-26 on the main IndyCar board and it got me thinking about Penske Cars.

          The PC-26 was the final Nigel Bennett design. John Travis designed the PC-27 for 1998 and then refined it for the PC-27B in 1999. That was the final Penske chassis to be used in competition.

          Penske used a Reynard 2Ki in 2000 and a Reynard 01i in 2001. Travis was responsible for development of both of those chassis for the team - and the team in Poole did a ton of development work, hence the term "Reynske".

          Penske then went full time IRL in 2001.

          I know Penske submitted a proposal to be a constructor for the IRL - but they were turned down. The car was to be known as the PC-30 (I found this on Travis' LinkedIn page).

          Were there every any images of this car released (concept drawings or photographs)? I've never seen anything.

          What about the "missing" PC-29? I believe the PC-28 was designed and possibly built for the 2000 season, but was never run??

          I'm also curious to know more about why the IRL turned down Penske as a possible constructor?
          Answer on the last question:

          Remember when in the pre-IRL years Penske supplied customer cars? More correctly: cleaned up the storage rooms by selling off no longer needed hardware that didn't win the Indy 500 for him?

          More serious now: I think that at that time, and after the approvals of how far Roger went to secure Indy victories, there was a sincere feat that the customer cars supplied by Penske would not be as exactly as good as the factory cars fielded by team Penske. And the idea was that in IRL everyone would have access to the best material supplied by each supplier.
          Besides that, Neither Dallara, nor G Force ran a factory team in a manner comparable as what Team Penske would be in case Penske was permitted to supply IRL cars.
          Certainly after 1994 IMS, USAC IRL, name it what was involved with the 500 and the IRL series was very certain to make sure that Penkse could no longer be in a situation anymore in which he could use equipment avaialbel to him only or of what he had the most knowledge about of everyone who had access to it. Example?

          IRL announced the new atmo formula to be valid from 1997 on but because of nothing being built yet continued with pre-1996 cars and engines. Only one kind of engine that was still premitted for the 1995 Indy 500 was made illegal by USAC during 1996 already, thus one year ahead of all other permitted designs,
          Which one did USAC ban?

          Their own invention, the bespoke 209 Pushrod!
          Now that made it for once and for all impossible for Menard to even vaguely consider give their own bespoke Pushrod V8 at least one try after all.
          It also put Peter Greenfield's bespoke V8 out of business one year early.
          But most of all: against the weak IRL opposition that was left, it made any plans Roger might have had to field his left over 1994 cars fitted with the left over Ilmor 265E/M-B 500I to steal a last "500" victory impossible.

          Late '95 Penske had done some testing with the '95 cars at the Speedway and by then the chassis setup error which had caused all havoc a few months earlier had been identified and corrected.
          They knew all together that, if a '94 or '95 Penske could be at the Speedway in '95, they were to be contenders again. And against what was there that year, they could have been damned competitive and maybe, with an improved 500I taken victory after all.
          So that loophole was closed by USAC......



          Indyote

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Indyote View Post

            Remember when in the pre-IRL years Penske supplied customer cars? More correctly: cleaned up the storage rooms by selling off no longer needed hardware that didn't win the Indy 500 for him?
            Of course that was during the days of a free market and no one was holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to buy Penske cars. If teams didn't like what Penske sold them they were free to buy cars from someone else.
            The Ayn Rand of Indycar

            No one had to badge the Offy.

            Crapping all over threads since 2000.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DaveL View Post
              Of course that was during the days of a free market and no one was holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to buy Penske cars. If teams didn't like what Penske sold them they were free to buy cars from someone else.
              True.
              But I think you know much better with what I try to explain than you show with only expressing your disgust about someone daring to give a blast at Penske.

              And I also wonder what Tony Bettenhausen could have told us about negotiating with Amax for investing sponsor money in brand new equipment instead of getting bargains from Penske but then knowing you won't have the best material at hand.
              From what I've understood, AMAX was willing to do business with Penske but there had to be something in return for the indycar team......

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Indyote View Post
                True.
                But I think you know much better with what I try to explain than you show with only expressing your disgust about someone daring to give a blast at Penske.
                The other points you made in your post are perfectly valid and factual. However, if the IRL was so concerned about Penske not selling his best stuff to other teams, in my world that's a problem for the customers and the market to correct. If Penske won't sell the good stuff, in a free market someone else will and he'll have no market share except his own team. If Penske planned on making a profit off of customer cars in the IRL, he'd have had no choice but to provide the best product otherwise no one would buy from him as there were other vendors. If not for the ridiculous rules that required pre-approval from the IRL to sell products, any team could simply buy from Dallara, G-Force, or Lola if they didn't like what Penske was selling.

                So I'm saying the IRL's whole rational was faulty and an excuse to not allow anyone else to play in their sandbox.
                The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                No one had to badge the Offy.

                Crapping all over threads since 2000.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oops, double post.
                  The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                  No one had to badge the Offy.

                  Crapping all over threads since 2000.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DaveL View Post
                    The other points you made in your post are perfectly valid and factual. However, if the IRL was so concerned about Penske not selling his best stuff to other teams, in my world that's a problem for the customers and the market to correct. If Penske won't sell the good stuff, in a free market someone else will and he'll have no market share except his own team. If Penske planned on making a profit off of customer cars in the IRL, he'd have had no choice but to provide the best product otherwise no one would buy from him as there were other vendors. If not for the ridiculous rules that required pre-approval from the IRL to sell products, any team could simply buy from Dallara, G-Force, or Lola if they didn't like what Penske was selling.

                    So I'm saying the IRL's whole rational was faulty and an excuse to not allow anyone else to play in their sandbox.



                    Lola wasn't permitted to sell anythignduring the IRL era.

                    I guess that IRL wanted to spread the wealth over three manufacturers at most. But if indeed Penske did not want to sell the best stuff, within the world of IRL that was a problem for which the only remedy was that customers could look onto the other two suppliers and write off their second level Penske material first. Did they still have enough money to get the new equipment?

                    I know about stories of Bettenhausen owned Penskes that supposedly were good with the standard materials. But the trick stuff, that made the cars perform at the limit was not made available, effectively making AMAX having money wasted thaot could ahve been used on Lolas and/or Reynards instead.

                    But I personally think that most of all, IRL siply was not willing to take any chances with Mr. Penske after he had outsmarted them with their own rules and turned what was supposed to be aimed against him and him alikes into a benefit to him only. Hence why they kept him out of the playfield bringing all toys he had made but let hem work with materials others had access to as well. That he still makes more with that than others, that's something IRL/Indycar can't do anything against.
                    As long as he remains so motivated for Indy victories, you can't beat him in that game, free market or not. Indycar simply has to deal with that.
                    1994 was historic, maybe not appreciated by everyone who saw it but it was historic to a level that we rarely saw anything like it before (1939 GP Tripolis with Mercedes W165) and indeed nothing like it thereafter. But historic as it was, I think it also made USAC/IRL even more determined than ever to stop Penske getting the `unfair advantages` if they were in the position to do so.
                    Denying him to built IRL chassis was certainly such a moment.



                    Indyote

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DaveL View Post
                      The other points you made in your post are perfectly valid and factual. However, if the IRL was so concerned about Penske not selling his best stuff to other teams, in my world that's a problem for the customers and the market to correct. If Penske won't sell the good stuff, in a free market someone else will and he'll have no market share except his own team. If Penske planned on making a profit off of customer cars in the IRL, he'd have had no choice but to provide the best product otherwise no one would buy from him as there were other vendors. If not for the ridiculous rules that required pre-approval from the IRL to sell products, any team could simply buy from Dallara, G-Force, or Lola if they didn't like what Penske was selling.

                      So I'm saying the IRL's whole rational was faulty and an excuse to not allow anyone else to play in their sandbox.
                      Newman Haas frequently kept the best development bits for themselves. Yet most of the grid was Lolas for a number of years. Likewise Kraco essentially had a 1987 March in 1986 yet March still was able to sell cars until they became woefully uncompetitive.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Indyote View Post
                        I know about stories of Bettenhausen owned Penskes that supposedly were good with the standard materials. But the trick stuff, that made the cars perform at the limit was not made available, effectively making AMAX having money wasted thaot could ahve been used on Lolas and/or Reynards instead.
                        We chatted with a team member from Rahal-Hogan who was there in May 1994 when Penske loaned them the PC-22/Ilmors (265's) for Indianapolis. They were rightly impressed by their construction, and IIRC, entered into the agreement with stipulations that they could not leak or borrow any secrets from the cars.

                        I'm pretty sure they were 1993 chassis that were nonetheless rolled out in 'top form' because they were entered by Penske as back-ups, presumably if the PC-23/Mercedes 209s had bad results. Rahal charged from 28th to finish 3rd. Mike Groff got caught up in a crash though.
                        Doctorindy.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DaveL View Post
                          ...if the IRL was so concerned about Penske not selling his best stuff to other teams, in my world that's a problem for the customers and the market to correct. If Penske won't sell the good stuff, in a free market someone else will and he'll have no market share except his own team....
                          The IRL was probably concerned with the quite-possible scenario whereby:
                          1) Penske house cars are the best
                          2) Penske customer cars are a lower-class but decidedly-better than anything else available
                          3) Dallara and G-Force, loyal IRL partners to that point, go to the scrap heap like March did, because of #1 and #2 above.

                          End result would've been: everyone needs a Penske, but only Penske has the Penske-est Penske's, and thus cleans up. Customers and free market can't correct that scenario.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MM658 View Post

                            End result would've been: everyone needs a Penske, but only Penske has the Penske-est Penske's, and thus cleans up. Customers and free market can't correct that scenario.
                            Replace the 1st and 4th Penskes with Dallara and that is exactly what the situation is now.
                            Just wait 'till next year!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by David_Skywalker View Post
                              Replace the 1st and 4th Penskes with Dallara and that is exactly what the situation is now.
                              The difference is that Dallara doesn't have their own factory team, as Penske would have in this scenario.

                              Comment

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