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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jim Wilke View Post

    My street car has 443 hp, weighs 3,500 lbs.
    Mine supposedly gets about 440hp to the rear wheels. Not bad but I'd lose the draft at 'Dega!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DaveL View Post

      If that's your line of thinking, why bother racing cars at all?
      Racing, and the manufacturers relationship to it has changed over the years. At different times building up reputation for speed and “win on Sunday, sell on Monday” was a thing. That has not been true for a long time. Maybe 20 years.

      Today, it is just sponsorship. A “Ford” or “Chevrolet” sticker is advertising, no different from any other sticker on the car. It is trying to get you to buy one the same way FedEx or McDonald’s or M&Ms are. For Toyota, much the same, plus reinforcing the truth that there is no such thing as a nationality for a car company. No thinking person has any illusion that anything in the car has any relationship to the actual street cars. But then again, no thinking person should have any illusion that the drivers actually have an affinity for the products advertised on their cars either.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SamC View Post

        Racing, and the manufacturers relationship to it has changed over the years. At different times building up reputation for speed and “win on Sunday, sell on Monday” was a thing. That has not been true for a long time. Maybe 20 years.

        Today, it is just sponsorship. A “Ford” or “Chevrolet” sticker is advertising, no different from any other sticker on the car. It is trying to get you to buy one the same way FedEx or McDonald’s or M&Ms are. For Toyota, much the same, plus reinforcing the truth that there is no such thing as a nationality for a car company. No thinking person has any illusion that anything in the car has any relationship to the actual street cars. But then again, no thinking person should have any illusion that the drivers actually have an affinity for the products advertised on their cars either.
        Everything you say is true. I'm trying to imagine a world where there is a relationship again.
        The Ayn Rand of Indycar

        No one had to badge the Offy.

        Crapping all over threads since 2000.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DaveL View Post

          Everything you say is true. I'm trying to imagine a world where there is a relationship again.
          Not really. The difference between brands in NASCAR is more than just stickers. That MAY (or not) have been true for the Gen-5/COT for bodywork, but not the current Gen-6 cars. Those have manufacturer specific bodywork. Of course, the brands all have their own engines, and always have.

          A tidbit about the future hybrid powertrains: NASCAR's Phelps say more changes coming to schedule in the future, new engine to have hybrid components - Jayski's NASCAR Silly Season Site

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AGRiculture View Post

            Not really. The difference between brands in NASCAR is more than just stickers. That MAY (or not) have been true for the Gen-5/COT for bodywork, but not the current Gen-6 cars. Those have manufacturer specific bodywork. Of course, the brands all have their own engines, and always have.
            The engines have the exact same displacement and architecture. Conceptually there is no difference between them and it's a formula from 1974. They are all normally aspirated 5.8L pushrod V-8s, a type found in only a very small handful (you can count them on your fingers) of street cars anymore, with throttle botty injection (ok, that's newer, I'll give them that) mated to a four speed transmission. As for bodies, I'd be gobsmacked if a single panel, window, or pillar from the street car would match what is run in NASCAR.

            How "stock" the cars are is subjective. From where I'm sitting, they have nothing to do with the street cars they're supposed to represent, certainly not when you compare them to a GT car.
            The Ayn Rand of Indycar

            No one had to badge the Offy.

            Crapping all over threads since 2000.

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            • #21
              Then you should like the future hybrid powertrains. That's more relevant to what's on the road than the pushrod V8s.
              GT cars, as mentioned by others, don't race on high speed ovals. NASCAR figured out that you can't do "real stock cars" on the big ovals back in the early 60s. They stopped using production bodywork in the late 1980s.(not the late 90s)

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              • #22
                Originally posted by AGRiculture View Post
                Then you should like the future hybrid powertrains. That's more relevant to what's on the road than the pushrod V8s.
                GT cars, as mentioned by others, don't race on high speed ovals. NASCAR figured out that you can't do "real stock cars" on the big ovals back in the early 60s. They stopped using production bodywork in the late 1980s.(not the late 90s)
                How many times to have to post that I'm not advocating racing GT cars on ovals??? It's as if I might as well be typing in an invisible font.

                And yes, stock bodywork stopped being used a long time ago, but even still a Lumina was not a Thunderbird with a different wrap and some superficial differences that have no affect on performance. Things got off the rails, IMO, when they allowed the "Taurus" thingy in 1996 that had nothing whatsoever to do with any Ford Taurus built in any Ford factory anywhere in the world at any time.

                And ok, they'll go to hybrids of some kind one of these years. They will all be the same architecture and I'd say it's safe to bet not found in any street car beyond a number so small you can count them on your fingers, if even that.

                The new car does nothing for me. It's a spec car, one the same as the next save for the stickers and minor cosmetic differences that will have no bearing on performance, powered by utterly irrelevant obsolete engines until maybe 2024 when they might switch to some kind of hybrid, all of which will have the same architecture and power.

                That's just me, a former fan of NASCAR since the mid 70s who know longer cares. I'm not alone.
                The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                No one had to badge the Offy.

                Crapping all over threads since 2000.

                Comment


                • #23
                  If you no longer care, why do you post so much on the NASCAR forum? I don't care about drag racing and thus don't even visit the NHRA forum let alone post in it. And you're off on when it went off the rails (must be a GM guy...). Up until about 2003 or 04, they followed automotive trends: 1980, downsized to the Gen 3; 1988, GM went FWD - Gen 4; Late 90s, midsize coupes fade - Ford Taurus. When NASCAR did the common templates and later Gen 5/COT, that's when it went awry. NASCAR has never been technologically innovative, BTW.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by AGRiculture View Post
                    If you no longer care, why do you post so much on the NASCAR forum?
                    I don't. Find my posts commenting on the most recent races or "Silly Season" or anything else going on in NASCAR right now.

                    What you're not understanding, it would appear, is that I want to care but can't and am stating my reasons (or some of them) why.

                    Critics are allow to have voices too.
                    The Ayn Rand of Indycar

                    No one had to badge the Offy.

                    Crapping all over threads since 2000.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The disingenuousness of those who fail to understand the damage that has been done to the sport since the so-called COT answered a question no one was asking and solved a problem that no one knew existed, goes something like this:

                      Well, NASCAR REALLY wasn’t stock since (insert year) so there you go.

                      So?

                      No, the “stock cars” of the previous well-run eras were not “strictly stock”. They were just far more stock appearing, and far more stock based, that the current spec-mobiles.

                      And the sport was FAR more popular.

                      BTW, it is an irrelevancy if the non-stock “manufacturer specific body parts” on a Ford, which have nothing to do with any Ford ever made; are slightly different from those on a “Toyota” or a “Chevy”. Same for the non-stock based spec-engines. It is still a spec-mobile.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SamC View Post
                        The disingenuousness of those who fail to understand the damage that has been done to the sport since the so-called COT answered a question no one was asking and solved a problem that no one knew existed, goes something like this:

                        Well, NASCAR REALLY wasn’t stock since (insert year) so there you go.

                        So?

                        No, the “stock cars” of the previous well-run eras were not “strictly stock”. They were just far more stock appearing, and far more stock based, that the current spec-mobiles.

                        And the sport was FAR more popular.

                        BTW, it is an irrelevancy if the non-stock “manufacturer specific body parts” on a Ford, which have nothing to do with any Ford ever made; are slightly different from those on a “Toyota” or a “Chevy”. Same for the non-stock based spec-engines. It is still a spec-mobile.
                        Stock appearing maybe...stock based...that can be argued.

                        https://www.hemmings.com/stories/202...ation-specials

                        But there was clearly a cat-and-mouse game between NASCAR and manufacturers, both in an effort to control speeds and level the playing field. During 1957, NASCAR outlawed the use of "exotic and multi-carburetor induction systems," which effectively outlawed the famed "Black Widow" Chevy, and the E-code and F-code Ford engines, for example. By the 1960s, as the street performance game was really heating up, wins on the NASCAR circuit meant sales in the showrooms, so many manufacturers were really pushing the rules, and France wasn’t enforcing his homologation regulations as strictly as he once was. In 1962, Pontiac’s championship-winning Super Duty 421 Catalina, for instance, wasn’t exactly homologated. Nor was Chevy’s “Mystery Motor" or Chrysler’s 426 Hemi, which dominated the 1964 season. These engines weren’t available at any dealership.
                        Yes, the homologation specials were produced as street cars...in varying very small numbers...actually seeing one on the streets was a somewhat unique event.

                        https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6318/4303620/
                        With the late 80s Thunderbird and Monte Carlo aerodeck and the later Monte Carlo, the NASCAR aerodynamics did become more ensconced in the production cars.
                        But rear wheel drive gave way to front wheel drive on street cars...not suitable for stock car racing and perhaps the 'big break' with 'stock' cars.
                        BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

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                        • #27
                          Chrysler built and sold A990 Race Hemi cars at retail in 1964. They were sold as race cars without a warranty, but they could be registered for the road, if the state DMV allowed it.

                          That's no guarantee that the local popo would tolerate it, or that the car actually conformed to state and municipal law as manufactured and wasn't subject to being ticketed or impounded as soon as it rolled onto a public road.
                          Racing ain't much, but workin's nothing. Richard Tharp

                          Lying was a no-brainer for me. Robin Miller

                          "I thought they booed [Danica] because she was being a complete jerk, but then they applauded for A.J. Foyt. Now I'm just confused."

                          The real world sucks. Ed McCullough

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jakester View Post

                            Stock appearing maybe...stock based...that can be argued.

                            https://www.hemmings.com/stories/202...ation-specials



                            Yes, the homologation specials were produced as street cars...in varying very small numbers...actually seeing one on the streets was a somewhat unique event.

                            https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6318/4303620/
                            With the late 80s Thunderbird and Monte Carlo aerodeck and the later Monte Carlo, the NASCAR aerodynamics did become more ensconced in the production cars.
                            But rear wheel drive gave way to front wheel drive on street cars...not suitable for stock car racing and perhaps the 'big break' with 'stock' cars.
                            You prove the point. Multi-paragraphs, all true, about how “non-stock” this or that year’s race cars were. All true.

                            And irrelevant.

                            OK, the race car in this or that year was not exactly “stock” .

                            And this justifies the monstrous vileness that is the COT and its successors, because?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Oh, I think we can agree that the 'original' COT was rather an abomination. Even if wing rear spoilers were what was appearing on production cars at the time.

                              My point is that even the "previous well-run eras" (which you seem to find hard to precisely define) featured 'stock cars' that were pretty far from 'stock'...
                              But maybe you're right that they 'looked more stock'.

                              Maybe if we brought back pop riveted headlight covers and door handle covers?
                              BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jakester View Post

                                My point is that even the "previous well-run eras" (which you seem to find hard to precisely define)
                                Like a lot of rot, it is hard to say EXACTLY when the first molecule of rottenness started, but I think we all understand that it began with someone saying “how about we…” and that person not being told to shut up.

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