The Top 35 Reconsidered

[Cri Cri]

The lack of new regular full time teams the last 3 or 4 years is because of the economy, not Top 35. At most races there are 10-12 cars going for the 8 spots. Half of them are start&park entries that really don't qualify well, so they really aren't keeping any young hot shoe out. And if there is eager competent crew that can bolt together a reliable 30th place car, they are going to make 3/4 of the races and move into the Top 35 in a few races.

I have to second Jonesi here. If I recall correctly, Nascar went to the top 35 rule in 2005 as a response to the 2004 Atlanta race where Scott Riggs and Scott Wimmer, (2 full time fully sponsored cars) didn't make the race because the other 7 provisionals were taken up by other regulars who were slower than other non-regulars that weekend. The provisional system usually took care of whatever regular had trouble in a weekend, but that weekend they ran out of provisional spots.

At the time, some were calling for Nascar to have some sort of closed shop franchise system, and their response was the top35 in points guaranteed. Truthfully I think it was a good response to protect the guys that are with you week-in and week-out.

[Rommey]

I think its safe to say that the top teams are going to make almost every qualifying on speed alone, without the safety net of the top-35 guarantee. Granted if every race was determined solely on speed, there is a chance that one of the top teams could possibly have an off-day and miss, but that's probably only going to happen once in a while. About the only provisionals I would give would be to the defending race winner and the previous year series champion to have a provisional to use once the following year.

[atrackforumfan]

I think its safe to say that the top teams are going to make almost every qualifying on speed alone, without the safety net of the top-35 guarantee. Granted if every race was determined solely on speed, there is a chance that one of the top teams could possibly have an off-day and miss, but that's probably only going to happen once in a while. About the only provisionals I would give would be to the defending race winner and the previous year series champion to have a provisional to use once the following year.

If you're going to have open qualifying on time without any guarantees for stars, you have to have at least two rounds of qualifying, which is a huge waste of time every weekend for a series that already runs almost 40 weeks a year.

In 2001, when there were 36 cars qualified on time and the rest of the field was set by points, the only car that never timed worse than 36th was Jeff Gordon.

[Rommey]

If you're going to have open qualifying on time without any guarantees for stars, you have to have at least two rounds of qualifying, which is a huge waste of time every weekend for a series that already runs almost 40 weeks a year.

In 2001, when there were 36 cars qualified on time and the rest of the field was set by points, the only car that never timed worse than 36th was Jeff Gordon.

Why would you need two rounds of qualifying?
OK, let's say that someone wrecks in practice or qualifying and can't make it in. Should they automatically get in because they are a "star"?

How about letting the "stars" (however that is to be defined) have a limited number, say two, provisionals to use each year? This give those teams a measure of insurance for making al the races.

[atrackforumfan]

How about letting the "stars" (however that is to be defined) have a limited number, say two, provisionals to use each year? This give those teams a measure of insurance for making al the races.

As the old joke goes, "We've established what kind of girl you are. Now, we're negotiating."

In 2001, every full time car but Gordon timed worse than 36th at least twice.

I'm happy with using recent points, wins, etc as an analog for stars. That's how other sports do it.

You don't put stars in for their own good. You do it because the fans come to see them.

The reason to have multiple rounds of timed qualifying is that you'll have a very high rate of stars missing the show with only one timed round and no back door (provisional, promoter's option, consi, etc)

[KevMcNJ]

They used to run 2nd day qualies. It took <15 minutes to run 2nd day time trials most days IIRC

[Rommey]

As the old joke goes, "We've established what kind of girl you are. Now, we're negotiating."

...or compromising...

In 2001, every full time car but Gordon timed worse than 36th at least twice.

How many timed worse than 43rd?

You don't put stars in for their own good. You do it because the fans come to see them.

So when Tiger Woods doesn't make the cut, do they allow him to play the 3rd and 4th rounds because that's who the fans came to see?

The reason to have multiple rounds of timed qualifying is that you'll have a very high rate of stars missing the show with only one timed round and no back door (provisional, promoter's option, consi, etc)

Thus my suggestion of a limited number of provisionals.

[atrackforumfan]

How many timed worse than 43rd?

Wish I had access. All I can find are the records for provisionals.

Interesting detail: Tony Stewart used four provisionals in 2001, which is more than most other top drivers, and finished 2nd in the championship with three wins.

Note that Nascar expanded its short track fields from 32 cars (beginning in 1989 IIRC) to 36, 40, 42 and 43 cars simply because star drivers and major sponsors were missing the race.

So when Tiger Woods doesn't make the cut, do they allow him to play the 3rd and 4th rounds because that's who the fans came to see?

Nope, though the event promoter may wish they could. (If the game's star performers are playing that badly, I'm betting on a sudden "muscle pull" on Friday afternoon. The only reason wrecked cars chug around a Nascar race is for Valuable Championship Points.) But they don't pick the field for the tournament each week based on one hole on Wednesday (which would be a more representative sample of a 72 hole tournament than a 200 lap race).

Thus my suggestion of a limited number of provisionals.

Which is fundamentally different, IMO, from complete qualifying by time every week. But as long as you're climbing on board the Good Sense Train, you're a welcome rider, friend.

[Rommey]

Nope, though the event promoter may wish they could. (If the game's star performers are playing that badly, I'm betting on a sudden muscle pull on Friday afternoon. The only reason wrecked cars chug around a Nascar race is for Valuable Championship Points.) But they don't pick the field for the tournament each week based on one hole on Wednesday (which would be a more representative sample of a 72 hole tournament than a 200 lap race).

But the promoter sells tickets for Sunday a long time before the cut and he's betting that Tiger is going to be playing on Sunday. It's just the chance the promoter needs to take...



Which is fundamentally different, IMO, from complete qualifying by time every week. But as long as you're climbing on board the Good Sense Train, you're a welcome rider, friend.[/QUOTE]

[atrackforumfan]

It's just the chance the promoter needs to take...

I've avoided that particular branch of this argument.

If you're telling the promoter that, barring an act of God, injury, scandal, etc, there's a realistic chance that the biggest star in the sport won't be in the field, and he should just accept he'll have to take his chances, prepare yourself for a frank and open exchange of views, delivered at the top of his lungs in short, plain words. Lots of pounding on his desk, too. He has enough unavoidable risks without a system that doesn't protect him from an obvious, and completely avoidable, problem like this landing in his lap.

(Hey, I didn't know you couldn't post ****. I'm okay with not being able to post ****, but it's a surprise.)

There's a reason that the most blatant back door into a feature race is called Promoter's Option.

[KevMcNJ]

They can advertise the Joe Blow will be racing/golfing this weekend so you better call now because good seats are going fast, but I bet theres always a discalimer somewhere in the ad saying that entries are subject to change without notice

It Joe Blow isnt one of the 42 fastest on Friday and isnt a past champion then maybe his team should go home and find some more speed.

[Sweaty Teddy]

I've hated the top 35 lock in since it was instituted. The previous provisional system, and particularly the Past Champions Provisional, were enacted because Richard Petty was becoming too slow to qualify on speed. Those provisionals allowed The King to hang around for way too long.

Sprint Cup is supposed to be the big leagues. How about the quickest 43 race on Sunday? Put on your big boy pants and get in on speed. They're claimed to be the "best drivers in the world". The "best drivers in the world" shouldn't need any mulligans.

[atrackforumfan]

You'll like the WoO's system. You can blow up in practice, qualifying, your heat race, and the consi. You're still given up to four provisionals to the feature per year if you're established as a regular, even if you suck. Because promoters aren't in business to disappoint fans, even though it's unavoidable sometimes.

"The management regrets to announce that, because he finished 11th in the mandatory team free throw competition this afternoon, Kobe Bryant will not be dressing for tonight's game."

This isn't about the stars. It's about the fans and the business.

Sprint Cup is supposed to be the big leagues. How about the quickest 43 race on Sunday? Put on your big boy pants and get in on speed. They're claimed to be the "best drivers in the world". The "best drivers in the world" shouldn't need any mulligans.

You aren't doing the driver a favor. You're doing the fans and the business a favor.

[9rows]

i am a fan of: "you either make the race or you don't. if you don't, come back and try again next week."

but i can understand why a promoter, teams, etc. would want some type of a provisional system

[DaveL]

Comparisons of racing to other sports are rarely valid. You can only compare other forms of racing. The T35 is like locking in 6 out of the 8 spots in a gold medal final heat at the Olympics for runners who compete at other events during the year, never mind how fast they actually can run. And the Past Champion Provisional is like reserving a spot in the same final for a runner who won the gold medal before, regardless of how long ago it was, and regardless if he or she is remotely fast enough to keep up with other runners.

The sport experienced its greatest period of growth when everyone had to qualify on speed. Keeping 7 or 8 spots at the back of the grid open for good teams who had a bad day in qualifying worked well. Even back then, if you were a full-time team that couldn't qualify among the 35 fastest, and weren't high enough in points to get a provisional, then as another poster said go home and find more speed. Additionally, a team that bad that DNQ'd was likely not missed by anyone save for family and friends come race day. Attendance and TV ratings did not suffer one bit.

To make matters worse, a "Top 35" TEAM doesn't have to be an actual Top 35 team to begin with. Childress' fourth car (#33), which was a completely new team, was able to be in the top 35 because it "formed an alliance" with Bobby Ginn whose team had been defunct for two years but through gymnastics only possible by NASCAR, was still eligible.

Locking in the top 35 and locking out nearly everyone else sends a message to potential new teams, "We don't want you." It has been suggested that the reason why there hasn't been a single serious new team save for MWR, is the economy. Maybe it is. However, if a team is never formed we'll never know the actual reason why. I'll concede that sponsorship is hard to come by these days. However, it is legitimate to posit that the T35 has discouraged potential teams from even trying. Hard as it is get a sponsor, it must be harder to have to tell them that the team can qualify 8th fastest (as the 8th open spot is always taken thanks to the ridiculous application of the Past Champion Provisional rule) and get sent home, while some teams that are only in the T35 due to legal technicalities that only make sense to NASCAR and nothing to do with what they did on the track will get to race.