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  • Scheduling (again)

    Just looked at some thread in the "mainline" forum (what makes this, then) that wanted to see Cleveland return to the schedule.

    My question, why?

    It would be the second race in Ohio. I've never been there but it can't be more than a few hours from Detroit, Indy, and Mid-Oh. Kentucky is close in that area, so are Chicago, Milwaukee, and Michigan (was). It's not a trip down the road, but all within a reasonable distance (compared to a lot of us). There are two in Florida.

    I understand that you have to build off of the midwest fanbase, however:

    There are no races in the Southeast (Richmond and Nashville aren't exactly close). Nothing closer than a day trip from Charlotte, Atlanta, NO, Birmingham, ect. There are plenty of good tracks.
    No races in the Southwest at all (and there are plenty of good tracks).
    None in the Pacific Northwest (and there could be some good tracks).
    None in the Rocky Mountains (and there could be some good tracks).

    These are all markets that could be tapped into, given a little bit of promotion and understanding that the markets are different than the midwest. Instead we have to go to Australia? Edmonton?

    It looks less and less like a National championsip than it does a Midwest & Florida regional series.

  • #2
    I understand that you have to build off of the midwest fanbase, however:

    There are no races in the Southeast (Richmond and Nashville aren't exactly close). Nothing closer than a day trip from Charlotte, Atlanta, NO, Birmingham, ect. There are plenty of good tracks.
    Where? Atlanta was an attendance failure, heck, they can barely draw a really good crowd for Nascar. You can forget Charlotte. Most of the other tracks aren't suitable for Indy cars.

    No races in the Southwest at all (and there are plenty of good tracks).
    Phoenix attendance was a joke. Fontana the same.

    None in the Pacific Northwest (and there could be some good tracks).
    I believe there's been talk of keeping Portland going.

    None in the Rocky Mountains (and there could be some good tracks).
    There's no racetracks other than the new road course south of Salt Lake City.

    These are all markets that could be tapped into, given a little bit of promotion and understanding that the markets are different than the midwest. Instead we have to go to Australia? Edmonton?

    It looks less and less like a National championsip than it does a Midwest & Florida regional series.
    Where are all these racetracks at? I see nothing in your post.
    Trump, he's one of the nicest, most decent human beings possibly ever to walk the planet..

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Red Byrd
      Just looked at some thread in the "mainline" forum (what makes this, then) that wanted to see Cleveland return to the schedule.

      My question, why?
      Because it was a CART event.
      IRL 2009: "Cars you can't see, driven by drivers you have never heard of, on a network you don't get"

      "I'd hire your grandmother, if she brought a budget"- Bankrupt Indy Car team owner Tyler Tadevic, to Curt Cavin in December, on the tough standards he looks for when "hiring" driver talent.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Jimmy Hendricks
        Because it was a CART event.
        Yep.
        "It was actually fun, because you're back fully driving again in these trucks. Ninety percent of the tracks we go to in the IRL, you're flat-out. I was having to lift off the corners some here." - Buddy Rice

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Indyknut
          Phoenix attendance was a joke.

          That was one year, that had several mitigating circumstances.

          Phoenix has a great open-wheel history. Give those people a good product, and some drivers they have heard of and can get behind, and they will show up.

          Plus, its a real race track, that takes actual oval racing talent.
          IRL 2009: "Cars you can't see, driven by drivers you have never heard of, on a network you don't get"

          "I'd hire your grandmother, if she brought a budget"- Bankrupt Indy Car team owner Tyler Tadevic, to Curt Cavin in December, on the tough standards he looks for when "hiring" driver talent.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jimmy Hendricks
            Because it was a CART event.
            That isn't why I want to see it kept.

            I want to see it kept because it was a much better "racing" event than any of the three they picked up, and a whole lot better than Mid-Ohio or Belle Isle (or even Sonoma, for that matter).

            Racing-wise, Road America and Cleveland were really the two best US events they had left, but neither of them are on the unified schedule, nor do they seem to be a priority. My fear is that we will ultimately wind up with the worst "racing" venues (a/k/a the biggest parades) of the former CART/CCWS schedules, and few of the actual "racing" venues.

            I am fully aware that attendence probably does not support my choices of "best venues."

            I followed ICS and CCWS, but there were a whole lot of CCWS events that I had no real attachment to. As someone once said, they were the type of events that you watched not expecting a real race, but to see what stupid things some drivers would do. I don't expect that from ICS events, and yet we seem to be picking more of those up.
            One driver's "fuel strategy" is another driver's "speed up or we will park you!"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Jimmy Hendricks
              That was one year, that had several mitigating circumstances.
              As I recall, it was the first year the IRL race was left off the NASCAR ticket package. The race was left to stand on it's own two feet. Crutches couldn't help the attendance that year.

              Phoenix has a great open-wheel history. Give those people a good product, and some drivers they have heard of and can get behind, and they will show up.

              Plus, its a real race track, that takes actual oval racing talent.
              We shall see. I have a feeling the new direction will be choosing tracks that can provide a financial payback. That and those that are Grandfathered in via a brokered deal with the merger. Taking a gamble that Phoenix would ever draw like it did back in it's heyday is just that, a gamble. That said, I would love to see the track back on the schedule, I don't forsee it happening though.
              Trump, he's one of the nicest, most decent human beings possibly ever to walk the planet..

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Indyknut
                As I recall, it was the first year the IRL race was left off the NASCAR ticket package. The race was left to stand on it's own two feet. Crutches couldn't help the attendance that year.


                1. It was moved to Saturday afternoon.

                2. Weather was crappy.

                3. NCAA tournament going on in Phoenix that same day.


                Phoenix ALWAYS supported Indy Car Racing, when Indy Car Racing had a good, marketable product, for the thousands of TRUE open-wheel fans in the desert. Its a much better market then Michigan would be, and arguably is just as good as Milwaukee.

                It belongs.
                IRL 2009: "Cars you can't see, driven by drivers you have never heard of, on a network you don't get"

                "I'd hire your grandmother, if she brought a budget"- Bankrupt Indy Car team owner Tyler Tadevic, to Curt Cavin in December, on the tough standards he looks for when "hiring" driver talent.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jimmy Hendricks
                  That was one year, that had several mitigating circumstances.

                  Phoenix has a great open-wheel history. Give those people a good product, and some drivers they have heard of and can get behind, and they will show up.

                  Plus, its a real race track, that takes actual oval racing talent.
                  Jeez Hendricks, finally we agree. Phoenix is a great race track even after the alterations for the n ( I have to be carefull) series.
                  Probably will get locked out here too.
                  "Moralism is often the first strength of a weak mind"
                  -Norman Mailer-

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                  • #10
                    I understand why people who have gone to Cleveland want it to make the cut, I realize it dates back to 1982 on the CART schedule, I have to put up with some people who just want to bring everything from CC over to the ICS.


                    The first series of questions to be answered are all financial. Who is the promoter, can they sign a multi year contract, can they pay the sanctioning fee, do they have a title sponsor, can they generate the attendance they require to make a profit, if they need a Saturday race can they line one up, are they locked into one specific date or could scheduling be flexible in the future, can they keep the event going in the future on their own because the league won't subsidize their event? These have to be answered before someplace gets added to the schedule.

                    Temporary circuits face a different set of problems than permanent ones. Setting up and breaking down the course, paddock, grandstands and fan facilities has to be done in a short time frame before and after the event. Beyond the material costs that increases the labor costs with the opening day deadline. Airports have to reopen and city streets need to be ready for traffic. So the promoter needs more revenue than a permanent track with those things in place all the time. Personnel is another issue temporary tracks only run once per year while permanent tracks can bring in the same people multiple times per year.

                    That's how events with 3 day 150,000 attendance can still have the promoter asking for help from the local or state government. So for all of them when people suggest adding this or that street race, please help it look more feasible by identifying who is going to foot the bill. I don't see a long line of legitmate respected promoters out there clamoring to put these things on. It seems like Andretti Green got the deal they were looking for in St. Pete and they are making it work, Penske pulled together the organization that put on the Super Bowl to get Detroit on steady footing.

                    Mike Lanigan is the latest in a long line of promoters at Cleveland, none of the others retired because they made so much money at it, they got out. He has Houston as well, it's a new race but can it get everything put together quickly enough to sign starting back up in 2009 especially after being cancelled this year.

                    As for any of the others, who will be the promoters who make them work?
                    "You can't arrest those guys, they're folk heroes"
                    "They're criminals"
                    "Well most folk heroes started out as criminals"

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                    • #11
                      ...I'm not a fan of temprorary or street course races. Having said that, Cleveland has a decent , racey lay-out and has staged some excellent races over the years. I would much rather see Cleveland than Belle Isle.
                      ​a bad day at the race track beats a good day at work

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                      • #12
                        Phoenix hasent had a decent promoter since Ted Lake....

                        ....he WAS the reason why there were crowds for openwheel back in the day.

                        The current 'regime' couldnt care less.

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