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CCWS/OWRS Year Two Grand Total?

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  • CCWS/OWRS Year Two Grand Total?

    From the bankruptcy buyout up to Vancouver's $20,000,000, can anyone come up with a rough number for a grand total invested?

  • #2
    What's Vancouvers $20M?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by morden
      What's Vancouvers $20M?
      Sorry, I meant Toronto.

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      • #4
        Where did you get that figure? I haven't seen anything published.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by morden
          Where did you get that figure? I haven't seen anything published.
          I believe it was the number the Toronto Sun estimated.

          jono

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          • #6
            Does anyone know if the Molson TV production company (Molstar?) was included in the deal?

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            • #7
              Even if they have invested $20mil it's still less than Forsythe has already lost on his cart stock. Since we are talking comparitive pennies here (to these guys, anyway) it's not that much if you have a chance to get it back and maybe recoup some of the initial loss.

              I guess if I'm calling $20 mil "comparitive pennies" that gives you an idea how much money is involved in big time motorsports. That's why we're all in trouble.

              Except for the Grand American, of course.
              "Is that my *** that I smell burning?" ... Helmet Stogie from "Death spasms of the Mabuchi"

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              • #8
                Probably best to break it down:

                Series acquisition:
                $_________

                Cosworth acquisition:
                $_________

                Competitor Allowance (or whatever the term is):
                $_________

                Internal budget for two years:
                $_________

                Television time buys:
                $_________

                Venue rights acquisition:
                $_________

                Self-promoted races:
                $_________

                Have I missed anything? Oh yeah;

                Budget for the the Kirby, Miller, and Phillips regional event media Open Wheel re-education program :
                $_________

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                • #9
                  I doubt you'd find figures on half of those items.

                  Since CC is now a private entity, this is a futile exercise. Yes, we have figures for some of the acquisitions, but not enough to come up with your grand total.

                  To be fair, it would be equally futile to come up with a figure for the IRL's "investements" too

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                  • #10
                    I don't know how much they've invested (millions more than they expected they'd have to, that's for sure) but at the rate OW racing is going I hope they all live, long, long lives. Because it's going to be a while until they'll see any profit.

                    Good luck guys, that's what this country is all about. Having a dream, and chasing it until you make it or break it.

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                    • #11
                      It would be interesting to roughly know for historical context, because if this endeavor ever runs in the black it'll have to be the greatest turnaround in sports business history! History in the making.

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                      • #12
                        Not to mention the fact that almost all of those are offset to varrying degrees by revenues.

                        ie. you buy Cosworth for $X, but how much did Williams pay for their engine supply? How much is the lease to the teams? You buy TV time, how much was offset by selling spots?

                        That's far more important than just "how much did they invest", the more important question is "how much did they lose".

                        jono

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                        • #13
                          What we DO know and what we don't. Regardless of which shell company did what:

                          1. Long Beach, $15,000,000.
                          2. Toronto, (estimated $20,000,000 -- maybe Canadian dollars -- for something, we know not what)
                          3. Series acquisition -- $3,000,000-plus.
                          4. Maintenance of the CART office and staff --Kalkhoven estimated it at $1 million per month.
                          5. TV time buys -- with network, plus production, I've seen estimates of $6 million for '05.

                          What we DON'T know:

                          1. Competitor allowance to keep a grid going.
                          2. How much money has been lost on Portland and Cleveland.
                          3. How much money was lost at Laguna and Road America in '04 and if the promoters bore some or all of the losses or if CC bore some or all.
                          4. Cosworth acquisition.
                          5. Pi Research acquisition.
                          6. Signing of RHR by CC as a driver.
                          7. Cost of their own race teams and whether or not they make out financially (Forsythe, with his own Indeck as a sponsor, for example...Gentilozzi, getting a "free" driver in RHR, for example.)

                          Revenue side:
                          1. Sanction fees from independent promoters.
                          2. Sponsor fees from Bridgestone and Ford, although I've heard in the range of $2 million each per year which includes TV advertising and, from Bridgestone, no free tires for competitors.
                          3. Deals with teams for engines since the Cosworth acquisition. RM estimated it as $750,000 per year, but we don't know how much of that is eaten up or transformd in some way by competitor allowances.

                          Did I leave anything out?
                          "The lunatic fringes on both sides need to be written off." -- stnky pete

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SportscarBruce
                            It would be interesting to roughly know for historical context, because if this endeavor ever runs in the black it'll have to be the greatest turnaround in sports business history! History in the making.

                            I think if they keep trimming the dead wood they'll eventually see a profit. I would be suprised if it is anytime in the next 10 years though. And by the time they're done cutting the circuits that don't draw (natural road courses), designing a formula that is affordable (spec cars) and populating the field with drivers who are willing to pay to play, well, I don't know if anyone will be buying what they're selling.

                            The traveling monster truck series makes a profit. The circus that goes from town to town makes a profit. That doesn't mean that they're anything I'd want to watch though.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by indycool
                              Revenue side:
                              1. Sanction fees from independent promoters.
                              2. Sponsor fees from Bridgestone and Ford, although I've heard in the range of $2 million each per year which includes TV advertising and, from Bridgestone, no free tires for competitors.
                              3. Deals with teams for engines since the Cosworth acquisition. RM estimated it as $750,000 per year, but we don't know how much of that is eaten up or transformd in some way by competitor allowances.

                              Did I leave anything out?
                              Yes, especially on the revenue side. Cosworth and Pi don't just sell to CCWS, the LB and Toronto races generate revenue, some of the TV costs are offset by selling advertising spaces, etc.

                              And the list of things we "DO" know you provided largly contains details that we don't.

                              The fact is that we know very little about these deals. I'd imagine the deal with Toronto spells out the cost to Molson of staying on as a sponsor, for example. It's not just buy X for Y.

                              jono

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