Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

CART's "Abandoning" of Ovals in the Early1990s.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • CART's "Abandoning" of Ovals in the Early1990s.

    With the new IRL Schedule out, I got to thinking. Lots of people complained about CART not racing on enough ovals thus the need for the IRL. Lets take a look at each of the races on the IRL Schedule, and what their status was in 1995.

    Homestead - Wasn't Built (CART raced there as soon as it opened)
    Phoenix - CART Raced There
    Motegi - Wasn't Built (CART raced there as soon as it opened)
    Indianapolis - CART Raced There
    Texas - Wasn't Built
    Richmond - No CART Race
    Kansas - Wasn't Built
    Nashville - Wasn't Built
    Milwaukee - CART Raced There
    Michigan - CART Raced There
    Kentucky - Wasn't Built
    Pike's Peak - Wasn't Built
    Nazareth - CART Raced There
    Chicagoland - Wasn't Built
    California - Wasn't Built ( CART Raced there as soon as it opened)
    Texas - Wasn't Built

    Of the ovals that the IRL races at, the only one that existed when CART was busy "abandoning ovals" was Richmond. (CART did have another oval race at New Hampshire.)

    The IRL schedule now consists of tracks that CART was racing at, or didn't exist - and Richmond. The IRL has tried racing at tracks that CART didn't - and learned that the reason CART wasn't there was that there was no market for those races. So here is the question, "Which oval tracks should CART have been racing at in 1995?"

    Had the IRL not been formed, would CART have added even more oval races? Their track record post-split was to add ovals as they were built. CART added Gateway, Homestead, Fontana, Rio, Chicago, Rockingham, Germany and Motegi.

  • #2
    Except for Phoenix and Loudon,CART had connections with all those ovals. That's why they raced there.
    Proud to be a complainer.

    Comment


    • #3
      The IRL has been trying to ride the Nascar coat tail while acting like they are the saviour of open wheel ovals.

      thanks Joe Bob
      "Living well is the best revenge"

      George Herbert

      Comment


      • #4
        If it's an act, it's a pretty convincing one.

        On the other hand, there's a lot to be said for the effect of a three-day takeover of downtown streets to gather a crowd - if you're a marketing platform.

        I know from hearing it from the fans themselves that many of them don't care much for oval racing. Some are downright opposed.

        It's no wonder that management has seemingly come to view them as a nuisance.

        It's also in CART's natural best interest as a marketing platform to operate unencumbered by allegiance to tracks they don't own, no matter what shape they are. Even crown jewels that to many are signatures of the series.

        I guess Indy had three strikes against it that made an Indy boycott in response to the creation of the IRL seem palatable- maybe even a smart business deal - they didn't own it, it was an oval, and it wasn't close enough to downtown.
        "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
        ~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"


        Brian's Wish

        Comment


        • #5
          slinger raises a good point, too.

          It's appearing now that there has always been a schism within CART itself, in addition to the one between open wheel fans.

          History, tradition, and the connection to the very tracks where drivers competed and triumphed or failed trying seems to have carried more weight with some members than it does with others.

          For Roger, it was Indianapolis that mattered the most- even more than his business interests in others apparently. For Bobby Rahal, it has now become Mid Ohio that's on the line.
          "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
          ~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"


          Brian's Wish

          Comment


          • #6
            Reality:

            1 - CART wanted to get in on the stock market bubble before it popped. Holding races at NASCAR ovals, where the capacity is known, before 1/2 or 1/3 full grandstands, did not give the illusion of prosperty required for the stock swindle. So it chose to run these silly "road courses", which were really city streets, parking lots, or dis-used airports. Then Andy Craig could spew out silly PR about 100s of 1000s of people at places that didn't even hold 1000s of people.

            2 - Major League wanna-be cities were willing to waste taxpayer dollars on these events, while the increasingly professional (increasingly ISC and SMI) oval track owners had the silly notion that they should make a profit on the deals.

            3 - Many people were so wrapped up in "the split" that they didn't see what CART was doing and how fundamentally dishonest it was.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SamC
              Reality:

              1 - CART wanted to get in on the stock market bubble before it popped. Holding races at NASCAR ovals, where the capacity is known, before 1/2 or 1/3 full grandstands, did not give the illusion of prosperty required for the stock swindle. So it chose to run these silly "road courses", which were really city streets, parking lots, or dis-used airports. Then Andy Craig could spew out silly PR about 100s of 1000s of people at places that didn't even hold 1000s of people.
              Reality check

              Among all of the pre-split ovals, with the possible exception of Richmond, there never has been sufficient demand for modern ChampCar oval race in the former slave states at a track that could safely hold a race.

              Hold an event at Road Atlanta and get a good crowd. Hold it at AMS and watch the tumbleweeds. Hold it at Daytona and get a crowd, but watch them turn angry when the race is cancelled because of the high gee forces.

              ONCE AGAIN, AT THE TIME OF THE SPLIT, CART WAS RACING ON EVERY SINGLE OVAL THAT WAS ECONOMCIALLY VIABLE AND "SAFE"

              The rest of your post is irrelevant to the "abandonment" theory.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by slinger
                Except for Phoenix and Loudon,CART had connections with all those ovals. That's why they raced there.
                First part true. Second part, false. Pocono is the only track in the north that could host an economically viable race that didn't have a connection and it was and still is far from being safe.

                NASCAR 1 -> NASCAR 2: No exterior debris fencing. Nothing to prevent a car from taking out the tree-size shrubs that line that section of the course and continuing into the woods.

                Pit-exit->Pit-in: No interior debris fencing to prevent a car or debris from going into the crowd. Armco set about 2 feet - industry standard is 4 or more feet- into the ground. Had the NASCAR 2002 armco destroying accident occured in an open-wheel car, the driver would have either submarined the armco or gone into the crowd. NASCAR can get away without debris fencing - it's cars don't lose wheels.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here's a sampling of Carts breakdown of venues in the early 90's pre-split, and then late 90's. post split

                  93-

                  6 Streets
                  6 Ovals (including Indy)
                  4 Roads

                  94-

                  6 streets
                  6 ovals
                  4 roads

                  95-

                  6 streets
                  7 ovals
                  4 roads

                  96-

                  6 streets
                  6 ovals(less Indy)
                  4 roads

                  97-

                  6 streets
                  6 ovals
                  4 roads

                  98-

                  7 streets
                  8 ovals
                  4 roads

                  So the balance of venues was shifting towards streets huh? If anyone had a beef, it would be fans of Road courses who were obviously getting short changed in this affair. Had Indy not been taken away from Cart in '96, the series would have been running more ovals than streets and quite a few more ovals than roads. As suitable ovals became available, Cart added them. As attendance began to fail, for whatever reason, at existing venues, Cart replaced them for more profitable ones. Sounds like a good business plan to me and judging from Carts popularity in the late 80's into the mid-late 90's, a far better one than the failed ovals only/try and copy Nascar concept put forth by the grandson.
                  Trump, he's one of the nicest, most decent human beings possibly ever to walk the planet..

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jjjanos
                    ONCE AGAIN, AT THE TIME OF THE SPLIT, CART WAS RACING ON EVERY SINGLE OVAL THAT WAS ECONOMCIALLY VIABLE AND "SAFE"
                    The rest of your post is irrelevant to the "abandonment" theory.
                    You don't have to shout- I don't disagree with the facts of your statement. They are very well known. But, the statement is irrelevant.

                    As I mentioned before, CART's business model meant that they had reasons for selecting venues that worked against ovals, road courses, and any tracks not owned or promoted by a CART member. It's not just ovals that that works against, but it does give ovals three strikes pretty quick.

                    The relevant point isn't so much what CART was doing then, but what it was naturally predisposed to do. Just like a business's stock is based not on past sales, but expectations of future performance.
                    "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
                    ~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"


                    Brian's Wish

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      De ja vu or whut??

                      Originally posted by jjjanos:
                      FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL, IT IS A MYTH THAT CART ABANDONED THE OVALS. During the cease fire, CART raced on every oval that was suitable safety-wise and profit-wise.


                      Originally posted by don7031:
                      79 CART season: 13 oval events, 1 road course
                      90 CART season: 11 road courses, 5 ovals

                      Some myth
                      "Each day well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well therefore to this one day for it, and it alone, is life"
                      ~ Sanskrit poem attributed to Kalidasa, "Salutation to the Dawn"


                      Brian's Wish

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        originally posted by Turn13
                        The relevant point isn't so much what CART was doing then, but what it was naturally predisposed to do. Just like a business's stock is based not on past sales, but expectations of future performance.
                        Amazing, you're claiming to be a prognosticator. Too bad Carts decision to ADD OVALS after the split in 1996 blows you're "Thesis made up to support you're opinion" idea. If there was ever a time for Cart to start abandoning ovals, it was after the split when the noose of Indy oval racing heritage was removed from around Carts neck. Yet, it didn't happen. As suitable ovals became available, Cart raced on them. Cart dropped ovals as attendance declined. OW oval racing just isn't as interesting to all the markets as it once was. The irl has proved that by not increasing the attendance at the former Cart venues it's ventured into. If you'd start looking more closely at the facts you'll find that good business decisions are based on the facts and not paranoid conjecture based on ego and self interest.
                        Trump, he's one of the nicest, most decent human beings possibly ever to walk the planet..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Since you don't like the IRL and you have no regard for those who do, why don't you take your interest to your street race series and leave us alone.
                          Proud to be a complainer.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cart dropped ovals as attendance declined. OW oval racing just isn't as interesting to all the markets as it once was.
                            CART racing -- or non-racing -- isn't as interesting. Name one race that has seen attendance increase. Virtually every venue, road, street or oval, has seen drops, some significant.

                            The irl has proved that by not increasing the attendance at the former Cart venues it's ventured into.
                            Not true. A number of IRL races have shown improvement. Maybe not spectacular, maybe not as quick as we would like but growth. Homestead and Michigan are doing better than CART did when they left, even Gateway was better and Phoenix is coming along nicely if you listen to anyone but Robin.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by trac-champ
                              If there was ever a time for Cart to start abandoning ovals, it was after the split when the noose of Indy oval racing heritage was removed from around Carts neck.
                              Noose? As opposed to what? The noose of all the road racing failures in this country? Now that the "noose" of Indy oval racing heritige is removed from cart, wheeeeeeeee! Ain't they sittin' purty?

                              One thing is for sure, I agree cart would have been better off if they bailed on oval racing in 1996. They were still viable enough that they could have forged their own identity as the North American road racing championship and everything would have been just fine for both series. Now, it's hard to say if cart has any good moves left, except for maybe knocking thier king over.


                              OW oval racing just isn't as interesting to all the markets as it once was.
                              It might have been had cart not posioned the well with a few toxins: (1.)Terrible cart oval racies (2.)Scorched earth policy.


                              The irl has proved that by not increasing the attendance at the former Cart venues it's ventured into.
                              It might have been different had cart not posioned the well with a few toxins: (1.)Terrible cart oval racies (2.)Scorched earth policy.


                              If you'd start looking more closely at the facts you'll find that good business decisions are based on the facts and not paranoid conjecture based on ego and self interest.
                              Like trying to rip off the fans in Texas? That was a great business decision, wasn't it?

                              LIke selling out the sport for a few wall street bucks? Now look at how much they are going to have to spend to get it back, and even then it's going to be a money pit. That was a great business decision, wasn't it?.

                              Like boycotting the 500 to put on their own distater? That was a great business decision, wasn't it?

                              No one wants to see another rant, but you can rest assured I can go on for page after page with all cart's bad business decisions. But you are right about one thing: they weren't made out of anything based on ego. I'de say if you are referring to George making his moves because of his ego, I'de prefer that to all of cart's blunders made out of greed, lack of integrity and sheer stupidity, IMHO


                              PS: Tell your buddies at the other place that "Dick" Austin is alive and well.
                              Last edited by Doc Austin; 08-17-2003, 09:49 AM.
                              "Is that my *** that I smell burning?" ... Helmet Stogie from "Death spasms of the Mabuchi"

                              Comment

                              Unconfigured Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X