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Where would open wheel racing be today...

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  • Where would open wheel racing be today...

    Where would open wheel racing be today if the split never happened. I have to say the series would be much better off thatn the current state of the INDY 500, IRL and the soon to be dead CART. Let's face it, economically, ratings,attendence of both series stink. If the split never happend, CART and the 500 would be very solid. CART would have 3,4 or 5 manufacturers, 21 solid events and a jewel of a 500. Of course the economic slow down would be a factor, but I'm sure 24-26 cars would be in the series. Who knows what the CART board would have done to screw it up, but it would have been hard to lose with the aces they had in their hands back in 1994. We may have never seen tony stewart and sam, but how much has the IRL grown and prospered with those guys anyway. Now, let the revisionism begin....

  • #2
    c^rt would have suffered the same fate it is now, only more quickly.

    We are lucky Tony finally stepped in when he did.

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    • #3
      Re: Where would open wheel racing be today...

      Originally posted by PIGSKINPETE
      Where would open wheel racing be today if the split never happened. I have to say the series would be much better off thatn the current state of the INDY 500, IRL and the soon to be dead CART. Let's face it, economically, ratings,attendence of both series stink. If the split never happend, CART and the 500 would be very solid. CART would have 3,4 or 5 manufacturers, 21 solid events and a jewel of a 500. Of course the economic slow down would be a factor, but I'm sure 24-26 cars would be in the series. Who knows what the CART board would have done to screw it up, but it would have been hard to lose with the aces they had in their hands back in 1994. We may have never seen tony stewart and sam, but how much has the IRL grown and prospered with those guys anyway. Now, let the revisionism begin....
      You bring up a purely hypothetical situation and accuse others of revisionism?!
      "I didn't hear a single comment about airboxes, "carbashians", or how terrible the car looked. I did see dozens and dozens of little kids in awe of the speed and how cool the cars looked. We should learn from our children."
      --Danny Noonan

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      • #4
        okay, forget the last line, it was a joke anyway. i'm just asking what do think CART would be if the split never happened. Let the hypothesising begin.

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        • #5
          Many of us saw the eventual downfall of CART a long time ago. For me, it was 1992. Others, I'm sure, saw it coming long before that. Going public sealed their fate and even their staunchest supporters should have seen that. The problem with CART is that a sanctioning body should not be concerned about the "bottom line". When that happens, they lose the ability to act in the interest of the sport. In CART's case, they were first under the thumb of the team owners and later, and even worse, they turned it over to the bean counters. Better for the sport to suffer a split than a collapse.
          Proud to be a complainer.

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          • #6
            IMO, Tony blew up the whole deal before you can know for certain that CART would have drug a "one series" sport into the gutter.

            You can't project that CART would have failed, because with the Indy 500, they managed to run things horribly and STILL do well.

            Could they have failed eventually? Sure. Would they have? You can't say.

            I think Tony George's power grab would have been better received had he let CART screw up a couple times.

            Plus, he'd have gotten a better product at a cheaper price.
            http://motorsportsblog.blogspot.com/

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            • #7
              The main thing for me is that I wouldn't have been the fan I am of Indy Car racing today. When the split occured, all the media attention actually attracted me to the sport. Before 1996, I did not care anything about Indy Cars, now I'm a fanatic! I think the whole sport of Indy Car racing would have been full of foreigners and road courses like it is today, give or take a few ovals. I think it would have been in a better financial situation though but it would not have interested me, (other than the Indy 500).
              If I were Ed Carpenter and you were a lady...

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              • #8
                There's no evidence that this was a power grab. That's the CART fan mantra but there's nothing to support it. TG has made no attempt to grab CART's road races and I doubt if he will do that even if CART fails. Tg's action was more of a preemptive strike. He was faced with having his race, the 500, at the mercy of an organization over which he had no say and little influence. I thought the 25/8 rule was a bad thing and that the formation of the IRL should have happened in 1997 with the new formula. No need for 25/8 then. Either way though, it couldn't have continued the way it was going. CART fans will never buy it but TG did not put CART where it is now. CART put CART where it is now.
                Proud to be a complainer.

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                • #9
                  If the split hadn't been NECESSARY

                  The arrogant CART owners snubbing of Tony led to the logical suspicion that they could threaten to boycott the Indy 500 if their word was not law. Tony could not take that risk with his family's primary asset. The creation of the IRL was not without risk, still isn't, but it insured the existence of the Indy 500, even if a watered down version for a while.

                  Had the CART owners not posed a threat to the Indy 500, the split would not have happened, and it is difficult to say what form CART would have assumed. However, the two incompetents prior to Pook (not willing to call him incompetent yet, as he inheirited a very difficult situation, but neither has he done anything to impress me with his competency) could have screwed up a two-car funeral.

                  My guess is that open wheel racing would have declined in popularity even if the split had not happened.
                  All rides are bought. But occasionally the currency is talent.

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                  • #10
                    The sport would be in about the same shape it is in today.

                    Open wheel has never had a clue about marketing. They operate on the assumption that the customer is wrong. That worked fine when they were the only show in town, but as soon as competition on a national level came from Nascar (yea those "Bubbas" happened to be darn good at sales and marketing) open wheel was exposed. I mean Andrew Craig claimed after being sacked that when he came to CART the organization had something like 1 full time person doing marketing. This to compete against an organization that is one of the very best in world. It was a mismatch from the start. And If you look at the continued track record of dumb moves by both organizations, the idea that if only we got these clueless folks together (or they never had split up) in one room, that somehow the sport would be much better shape today is an urban myth.

                    Heck, it's the same dorks basically running the sport today that did before the split. Sure the deck chairs have been rearranged, but fundamentally the same wrong headed attitudes rule open wheel on both sides, that's why putting them togther (or never having separated) would accomplish zero in the long run.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by slinger
                      There's no evidence that this was a power grab. That's the CART fan mantra but there's nothing to support it. TG has made no attempt to grab CART's road races and I doubt if he will do that even if CART fails. Tg's action was more of a preemptive strike. He was faced with having his race, the 500, at the mercy of an organization over which he had no say and little influence. I thought the 25/8 rule was a bad thing and that the formation of the IRL should have happened in 1997 with the new formula. No need for 25/8 then. Either way though, it couldn't have continued the way it was going. CART fans will never buy it but TG did not put CART where it is now. CART put CART where it is now.
                      No evidence it was a power grab? Please.

                      The VERY FIRST thing Tony George did, over two years before the IRL was started, was propose that he handpick the folks who run CART.

                      As far as protecting the Indy 500, it's ironic that as Tony George takes more & more control of the sport, the Indy 500 is worse off.

                      I believe CART put CART where they are now through their own stupidity; however, I also think that what TG did was for power.

                      Look at all the things that were going to be good about the IRL (equipment available for everyone, opportunity for short track drivers) that were so bad about CART (engine companies running the sport)?

                      Now you've got situations where Billy Boat's team loses their sponsor because Comptech wasn't allowed to build Toyota's.

                      What I don't believe is that the IRL didn't learn a single lesson from CART about how to handle Honda & Toyota.

                      They were heading down the right track in 2002 and blew it all up to get Honda & Toyota.

                      So now we have CART 1995, complete with Honda & Toyota running things- which I thought was the problem - except now it's got half the crowds, TV ratings, and sponsor interest.
                      http://motorsportsblog.blogspot.com/

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                      • #12
                        Back in the early CART days, when I went to Phoenix to see the Indy cars, I had to go by myself. It was only about 650 miles from where I lived then. I was involved heavily into racing on the short track level and I had lots of racing friends. Maybe not 14, but quite a few. I had no trouble getting someone to go with me or a ride for me to go with someone else for the Copper World or a fall version, but no one wanted to go see the Indy cars back then even. Being the slow learner that I am, it took me until the early 90s to realize that Indy racing just wasn't my kind of racing anymore. Sure, I still watched the 500 and read the papers, but as far as going to a race or even watching most of them on TV just wasn't happening. I don't know what would have happened to CART, OW (not counting short tracks) or even Indy, but whatever it was, it would have done it without me.
                        Some people will do nearly anything in order to be able to not do anything.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mnkywrch
                          No evidence it was a power grab? Please.

                          The VERY FIRST thing Tony George did, over two years before the IRL was started, was propose that he handpick the folks who run CART.

                          As far as protecting the Indy 500, it's ironic that as Tony George takes more & more control of the sport, the Indy 500 is worse off.

                          I believe CART put CART where they are now through their own stupidity; however, I also think that what TG did was for power.

                          Look at all the things that were going to be good about the IRL (equipment available for everyone, opportunity for short track drivers) that were so bad about CART (engine companies running the sport)?

                          Now you've got situations where Billy Boat's team loses their sponsor because Comptech wasn't allowed to build Toyota's.

                          What I don't believe is that the IRL didn't learn a single lesson from CART about how to handle Honda & Toyota.

                          They were heading down the right track in 2002 and blew it all up to get Honda & Toyota.

                          So now we have CART 1995, complete with Honda & Toyota running things- which I thought was the problem - except now it's got half the crowds, TV ratings, and sponsor interest.
                          Regardless of what TG did two years before, the formation of the IRL was not about power other than giving TG complete control over his own race. He couldn't control CART and he couldn't allow them to have control over the 500. As far as the IRL not learning how to control Honda and Toyota, I agree completely. I didn't care if they came or not. I can only hope that the IRL comes to it's senses and realizes that Honda and Toyota are not the show. Neither is Chevy. CART let the inmates run the asylum and the IRL will wind up in the can if they follow that policy.
                          Proud to be a complainer.

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                          • #14
                            Worst off

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                            • #15
                              Add ratings and attendance together and it isnt to far away from pre-split numbers. It would match or exceed previous numbers if CART wouldnt have run many of their fans off.

                              We get twice the number of races. 40 some cars and drivers. And we can choose which type of racing we can watch, not forced to watch a style of racing or a dud track we dont like.
                              "OWRS did not return phone calls."

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