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Wind-Tunnels (not the Dave Despain type)

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  • Wind-Tunnels (not the Dave Despain type)

    Why not eliminate them?

    Seems like such an easy cost-saving move.

    Everyone is starting with the same Dallara anyway...

  • #2
    Shazam! Okay. Now they're gone. What have you accomplished? Are you sure they're gone? How are you going to be sure? Do you really want that kind of draconian approach?

    Originally posted by crispy
    Why not eliminate them?

    Seems like such an easy cost-saving move.

    Everyone is starting with the same Dallara anyway...
    "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    • #3
      Originally posted by rjohnson999
      Shazam! Okay. Now they're gone. What have you accomplished? Are you sure they're gone? How are you going to be sure? Do you really want that kind of draconian approach?

      Yes. If you're going to have a single-chassis formula then go all the way with it and make it a cost effective formula. The on-track product gains nothing from the top teams gaining a few tenths in a wind tunnel.

      And I say this as someone who would trash Max if he ever proposed a wind tunnel ban for F1. But you have to pick what you're going to be, a single-supplier spec formula or a development formula.

      jono

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      • #4
        Almost impossible to enforce I would think.
        And do we really want Indy IROC anyway?
        Road racing is doomed...what this country needs is a big new racetrack designed for automobiles instead of horses. C.G. Fisher

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        • #5
          Anyone remember when CART/CCWS fans ripped the IRL because they didn't allow much development?

          Then the "no development allowed" DP01 came out and now the IRL is too expensive because they allow wind tunnel testing to play with the four or five open areas.

          Interesting to me how things have changed over the years. Recall the IRL's original chassis cycles were called too long by CART folks early on. Now, if a car can't be run for 6 years it's not worth the investment.

          And NASCAR has even gone that direction with a car which is also highly spec'd. (And I like the new one better than the old one).

          That said, I've always been a guy in favor of limiting development to some degree and controlling costs as much as reasonably possible, but there is a point where you gotta let the market work and let race teams race.

          Otherwise, you might as well just hand out the cars on Sunday morning and be done with it.
          We flipped our finger to the King of England
          Stole our country from the Indians
          With god on our side and guns in our hands
          We took it for our own!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nascarnation
            Almost impossible to enforce I would think.
            Agreed. I wouldn't want to be on the "wind tunnel police."
            And do we really want Indy IROC anyway?
            What do you think you have? Single-sourced chassis and spec engines from a crate - it's a higher HP Star Mazda.
            "It was actually fun, because you're back fully driving again in these trucks. Ninety percent of the tracks we go to in the IRL, you're flat-out. I was having to lift off the corners some here." - Buddy Rice

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            • #7
              And you think teams with money won't spend it on something else to gain those few tenths? How long have you been following this sport?

              Originally posted by jonovision_man
              Yes. If you're going to have a single-chassis formula then go all the way with it and make it a cost effective formula. The on-track product gains nothing from the top teams gaining a few tenths in a wind tunnel.
              "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
              Thomas Jefferson

              Comment


              • #8
                Does Chips underground tunnel where he does coast down measurements count as a wind tunnel, or does every team need to find an old abandoned tunnel going through a mountain to use for testing?

                I have never understood those who want kit engines, so teams can build a better mousetrap, and yet they don't want wind tunnels. Given the choice between aero tweaks or engine tweaks, put me in the aero side because those are visible and can be seen by the spectator.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by rjohnson999
                  And you think teams with money won't spend it on something else to gain those few tenths? How long have you been following this sport?

                  We're just having a discussion, you don't need to stoop to little personal jabs.

                  There will always be teams spending more money that can get more out of even a spec car, but if you can take out something as expensive (and effective) as aero development it goes a long way to keeping things tighter.

                  If you want to make the series more about car development, then have more than one manufacturer out there.

                  jono

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by step33T
                    That said, I've always been a guy in favor of limiting development to some degree and controlling costs as much as reasonably possible, but there is a point where you gotta let the market work and let race teams race.
                    Brian W Keske
                    bwkdesign.wordpress.com

                    "The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite."
                    -- Thomas Jefferson

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                    • #11
                      Let's start burning books...it has about the same logic.

                      The die is cast. Wind tunnels exists. Industrious people with a need to find speed will use them. Intellectually curious people will read books.

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                      • #12
                        Those guys have been in the wind tunnel for 6 months...that is ridiculous.

                        I have no problem with them handing out wings and bodywork before each race weekend.

                        This a spec series...not a wind tunnel series for the superteams...this is why the last 3 years you have BAD racing.

                        Remember how Wheldon ran away in 2006 at Indy, it would have been a snoozer if not for the Marco/Hornish finish.

                        Then all of a sudden Sam came from WAY back to blow off Marco BEFORE the finish line...you hardly ever see a pass BEFORE the line...it's usually entering Turn 1. Don't gimme the Marco scrubbed off speed in 4.

                        The only difference was Sam's wing didn't fall off.

                        Bruno's pole winner spent 3 years in the tunnel...heard that from a Ganassi guy.

                        The regular teams can't even hold the draft anymore...the big guys are winning 95% of the races because of extra time in the tunnel...

                        They'll still win the championships ...but at least you have the others winning races 50% of the time like the early 2000's.

                        You can police it, don't try kidding us. BS

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                        • #13
                          ^^^ You got it

                          jono

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Then all of a sudden Sam came from WAY back to blow off Marco BEFORE the finish line...you hardly ever see a pass BEFORE the line...it's usually entering Turn 1. Don't gimme the Marco scrubbed off speed in 4.
                            Actually, Marco scrubbed off speed in Turn 3 - he was so concerned with blocking Sam that he entered the turn way too low and had to lift, giving Sam the opportunity to close in the short chute and then get a run out of 4.

                            If Marco had just run the same line into 3 that he had run the previous 199 laps, he'd be the second Andretti on the Borg-Warner.

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                            • #15
                              You are flat wrong. Aero is expensive becasue the teams with money made it so. Eliminate wind tunnels (or anything else to restrict aero development) and the money will be spent elsewhere with exactly the same effect on cost and benefit.

                              Originally posted by jonovision_man
                              We're just having a discussion, you don't need to stoop to little personal jabs.

                              There will always be teams spending more money that can get more out of even a spec car, but if you can take out something as expensive (and effective) as aero development it goes a long way to keeping things tighter.

                              If you want to make the series more about car development, then have more than one manufacturer out there.

                              jono
                              "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
                              Thomas Jefferson

                              Comment

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