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  • Banner: Say No to E15

    Trackforum now has a rather interesting banner that wants the President to stop untested E15. This seems a little strange in that just about all the car manufacturers have ethanol compatible engines. Also, why call it E15 when the generally accepted label is E85? I have no problem in service stations offering E85 as an addition to their other product lines but am a little leary about replacing the current E90? since I don't know what it would do to my car's engine management system. VA runs a 90% gas/10% ethanol mix and so far it seems to work fairly well.

  • #2
    Also, why call it E15 when the generally accepted label is E85?
    They're not the same. E15 is 15% ethanol. E85 is 85% ethanol.

    The debate/argument is over allowing/requiring higher levels of ethanol in 'pump gas' which currently is E10 (not E90) in many locations. Current EPA rules limit ethanol to 10% in pump gas.

    And it's not just auto engines. Marine engine users have reported problems with E10. There are also lots of small engines, lawn mowers, edgers, blowers etc that have problems with higher amounts of ethanol. Just an example, the edger I just bought specifically says no more than 10% ethanol.
    BAN SHREDDED CHEESE! MAKE AMERICA GRATE AGAIN!

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    • #3
      For those small engines, to save weight, they probably have a lot of aluminum parts. Alcohol is corrosive to aluminum, unless it is anodized.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Jakester View Post
        They're not the same. E15 is 15% ethanol. E85 is 85% ethanol.

        The debate/argument is over allowing/requiring higher levels of ethanol in 'pump gas' which currently is E10 (not E90) in many locations. Current EPA rules limit ethanol to 10% in pump gas.

        And it's not just auto engines. Marine engine users have reported problems with E10. There are also lots of small engines, lawn mowers, edgers, blowers etc that have problems with higher amounts of ethanol. Just an example, the edger I just bought specifically says no more than 10% ethanol.
        Thanks Jakester,

        As I understand it most modern cars can handle the extra 5% without too much problem but as you stated the small engines could have a problem which is why I can support an addition to existing products, but would have a problem with replacing E10 with E15.

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        • #5
          I was in Idaho Springs yesterday and saw a Shell Station that had a sign that said "Our gas does not contain Ethanol".
          "Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jag-lover View Post
            Trackforum now has a rather interesting banner that wants the President to stop untested E15. This seems a little strange in that just about all the car manufacturers have ethanol compatible engines. Also, why call it E15 when the generally accepted label is E85? I have no problem in service stations offering E85 as an addition to their other product lines but am a little leary about replacing the current E90? since I don't know what it would do to my car's engine management system. VA runs a 90% gas/10% ethanol mix and so far it seems to work fairly well.
            Google "ethanol and engine problems." 24,300,000 hits. See previous posts by me.

            Do you know what the Indy car teams are required to do to a Honda engine after a race? They are required to drain all ethanol from the engine and run pure gas thru the engine before returning the engine to Honda.
            quote:
            "It is sad that open-wheel racing has become a buy a ride situation, but it is what it is."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MichaelP View Post
              I was in Idaho Springs yesterday and saw a Shell Station that had a sign that said "Our gas does not contain Ethanol".
              There's one of those in Gardner, Kansas, too. A good fifteen cents a gallon higher than everyone else, but a sign out front that says "NO ALCOHOL NO ETHANOL." And they get plenty of business...
              "I didn't hear a single comment about airboxes, "carbashians", or how terrible the car looked. I did see dozens and dozens of little kids in awe of the speed and how cool the cars looked. We should learn from our children."
              --Danny Noonan

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              • #8
                Originally posted by nm View Post
                Google "ethanol and engine problems." 24,300,000 hits. See previous posts by me.

                Do you know what the Indy car teams are required to do to a Honda engine after a race? They are required to drain all ethanol from the engine and run pure gas thru the engine before returning the engine to Honda.
                I knew they had to do this with Methanol engines, I was unaware it was required for Ethanol. Ethanol isn't corrosive the way methanol is. The process is called "pickling" the engine.....
                Asked how he’d like to be remembered were he hit by a bus tomorrow, Tracy doesn’t hesitate: “I’m a race-car driver. At the last second, I’d swerve and avoid the bus.”

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by sightlines View Post
                  I knew they had to do this with Methanol engines, I was unaware it was required for Ethanol. Ethanol isn't corrosive the way methanol is. The process is called "pickling" the engine.....
                  Ethanol is very corrosive. It damages seals and fuel lines, especially in 2 stroke engines. It has made a lot of money for boat mechanics. Their shops are full of boat engines waiting to be fixed because of ethanol.

                  Warranties are also a problem. Example: a lawn maintenance company I know had extensive repairs on commercial grade lawnmowers and weedeater. The weedeater was 2 weeks old. The ethanol damage was not covered by warranty.
                  quote:
                  "It is sad that open-wheel racing has become a buy a ride situation, but it is what it is."

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by skypigeon View Post
                    There's one of those in Gardner, Kansas, too. A good fifteen cents a gallon higher than everyone else, but a sign out front that says "NO ALCOHOL NO ETHANOL." And they get plenty of business...
                    Gas with no ethanol usually costs more, and is worth it.
                    quote:
                    "It is sad that open-wheel racing has become a buy a ride situation, but it is what it is."

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                    • #11
                      Most outboard engine manufacturers now recommend Marine Stabil, or their own similiar product, be added with every fill up. FYI: if you put a quart of ethanol in a container and leave it there for 2 weeks, most of the liquid in the container will be water.

                      Some national auto parts stores sell a quart of Marine Stabil for $30. My local hardware sells it for $20 per quart. Someone told me that Tractor Supply also sells it for $20 per quart.

                      True story: I called Mercury Outboard customer support for advice on fixing the ethanol damage to my Mercury, and consulted a friend at TF who is a boat mechanic to confirm the advice. While I was talking to the Mercury rep, I told him that the local gas distributor who sells gas to most marinas at my favorite lake, and I mean gas that contains ethanol, had to have his own outboard repaired because of ethanol damage. The Mercury rep broke out laughing.
                      quote:
                      "It is sad that open-wheel racing has become a buy a ride situation, but it is what it is."

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                      • #12
                        My family owns a marine shop in the Boston area. Yeah, as ethanol content in regular gas goes up, so do problems with outboards. One of the simpler ones is on carbureted engines (many smaller outboards are still carbureted). The way ethanol mixes with water can lead to some nasty sludge in the jet that just won't clear out without coming apart.

                        My dad now tells customers to only by as much gas at a time as they'll use in a week or two. He generally tells them that if they have gas sit around for more than a few weeks, they shouldn't use it. This is admittedly easier to do with engines under ~15 hp, since it's just less gas, overall.

                        Ethanol may be part of the answer, but it is not without problems.

                        In fact, I thought one of the advantages of bio-butanol is that it interacts with water much more like gasoline than does ethanol. Or am I thinking of something else?
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nm View Post
                          Ethanol is very corrosive. It damages seals and fuel lines, especially in 2 stroke engines. It has made a lot of money for boat mechanics. Their shops are full of boat engines waiting to be fixed because of ethanol.
                          .
                          As stated, the issue with Ethanol fuel is water absorbtion.

                          MYTH: E85 Ethanol is so corrosive. It will eat your gas tank and your fuel lines
                          .

                          FACT: Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.
                          http://www.1888pressrelease.com/e85-...i2c00y01y.html

                          The biggest issue with Marine applications, is that they are in a high humidity environment all the time.
                          Asked how he’d like to be remembered were he hit by a bus tomorrow, Tracy doesn’t hesitate: “I’m a race-car driver. At the last second, I’d swerve and avoid the bus.”

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sightlines View Post
                            As stated, the issue with Ethanol fuel is water absorbtion.

                            http://www.1888pressrelease.com/e85-...i2c00y01y.html

                            The biggest issue with Marine applications, is that they are in a high humidity environment all the time.
                            If you think I am wrong, I suggest you call Mercury Outboards national customer support number.
                            quote:
                            "It is sad that open-wheel racing has become a buy a ride situation, but it is what it is."

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                            • #15
                              Why do you think it's mostly marine applications that have trouble with ethanol?

                              Trust me, I am no fanboy of Ethanol for fuel. I run vintage motorcycles, and E10 fuel goes "stale" very quickly. As I tear apart carbs often, I see no difference in the rubber bits after running E10 fuels than I have for E0. ACV's in particular are very fragile and sensitive to chemical failure. Carb cleaner eats them for example.
                              Asked how he’d like to be remembered were he hit by a bus tomorrow, Tracy doesn’t hesitate: “I’m a race-car driver. At the last second, I’d swerve and avoid the bus.”

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